doudou Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 i actually use some copper cables use to electical installation and there are no difference between them and my old monster cables so don t waste your money... you can choose: having pretty cables and nothing to plug or simple cables with a good system for the same price buying a 500ft lenght isn t silly,you can buy cable for your friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinG Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 This is getting interesting. For my setup, Ive got all my decent interconnects (Group 2 camp), and am left only with how to meet my 160ft requirement for speaker cabling. If I go for the Group 3 cats meow route, something like catcables.com, Im looking at about $670US. If I go the Group 2 route, I can go with ramelectronics.com (http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/speaker-cables.html) who have very respectable product (see desc with partial hype below) ay a total cost of $339 US. I figure these cables are on par with Ultralink excelsior, but are 30% cheaper. If I go the HD route, and pay say 30 cents/foot and get 20 connectors at say $5/each. , thats about $150. Based on those choices, $150 (Gr 1) or $339 (Gr 2) or $670 (Gr 3) . Isee what this group is split on the topic, but I am certainly leaning toward the first two, not the third. I'm kind of surprised to learn so many KLIPSH (or equivalent) owners have gone a Home Depot (or equivalent) route to wire up their prize possessions... Marvin Description ============ These cables use Canare 4S11 Star quad cable with its special PE Conductor insulation (dielectric) and has very low capacitance, inductance, series resistance and noise). Most importantly it will last. Typical cables with PVC insulation simply will not last. Oxygen free copper will not remain oxygen free when the PVC degrades. These cables use the same Canare 4S11 Star quad cable used in high quality "Live sound" applications. It has a special PE Conductor insulation (dielectric) - not PVC, and has a consistant combination of low capacitance, low inductance, and low series resistance. It consists of 4 - 14AWG conductors in a "quad helix" geometry. Wired in the "Star Quad" fashion (2 - 14 AWG conductors per polarity) inductance is even lower than many "exotic" cables and it generally has far lower capacitance. 11AWG is also perfect for longer cable runs. There is generally a large difference in inductance (usually considered the most important speaker cable metric) between this and the usual "two wire" speaker cable designs. Speaker Cables have "House" Brand Connectors - Locking Gold plated Banana Plugs with screw down gold plated screws onto WBT crimp sleeves In these cables, the combination of cable geometry, and high quality materials result in far better, longer lasting sound quality than typical stranded cables. They are professionally crimped with WBT Gold plated crimp sleeves for a cold weld - "permanent" perfect crimp which will not degrade like bare wire or even solder. Different ends (Banana, Spade, etc) can be easily user installed without requiring professional re-termination - simply screw them onto the Gold plated crimped sleeves. We also offer these cables with high end WBT Spade and Banana terminations. Features: Crimped with WBT Gold plated crimp sleeve ferrules - easy to replace ends, or use without ends - 11 AWG per conductor, available in Bi-wire configuration Exceptionally durable and resistant to tough environments Gold plated locking banana plugs with gold plated locking screws or optional WBT spades or banana plugs for the ultimate in current transfer, Professionally assembled and tested. Finest combination of quality, performance and value available 30 day unconditional return Conductors Canare uses many thin strands of annealed copper for excellent flexibility and long life reliability. Special polyethylene dielectric offers low capacitance and low series resistance for improved frequency response over long distance cable runs. Star Quad configuration improves damping factor at the speaker. Individual conductor Color Coding (Red, Clear Red, White, Clear White) allows easy continuity checks. Quad* wiring: 11AWG Cond. (D.C.R.)2.6 ohms/1000ft Nom. Cap.*** 45 pF/ft. * Effective AWG of combined twin conductors. *** Capacitance between twin Red and twin White Conductors. 4-Conductor Speaker Cable Four-conductor configuration minimizes noise and polyethylene insulation reduces induction rate to boost frequency characteristics. APPLICATIONS * PA SYSTEMS * HI-FI SPEAKERS * DC POWER LINES FEATURES * SUPER FLEXIBILITY, EVEN IN SUB-ZERO WEATHER * STAR QUAD DESIGN REDUCES EMI NOISE * LOW CAPACITANCE & RESISTANCE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Gil, as ever, we like the way you stay wired! -Klipsch, Mac & HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 ---------------- On 3/8/2004 11:53:33 AM MarvinG wrote: 1) Approx what price range are we talking for the HD route - something like $1/foot? 2) Are you cautioning to take care even in HD as there may be two sections sellinng 12 gauge speaker wire , only one of which is the good stuff? Marvin ---------------- I think he meant the less expensive one sold with the electrical wire, as some wires are re-priced higher to be sold as audio cable in the "telephone/audio accessories" section. In some cases the standard electrical power cords are made of better source materials than the audio ones. I have seen some pour quality "speaker wire" where the insulation reacted with the copper and corroding it, but this is the exception rather than the rule. Having moved things around in my system recently, I need to replace a couple of my wires and I will be trying either CAROL CABLE 12Gauge 2-COND 50' (38¢/ft) or a very similar 10gauge 4cond wire. I posted that link because is labeled as speaker cable... even though SJ, SOW, SOOW, etc... are basically extension cord wire. These cords tend to be flexible and very robust, made with commercial grade non-reactive shield. Similar wire can be found locally in most hardware stores... and are worth a look. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinG Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 Wow. Now you have my attention!.... So if I order say the 250 foot roll, for a mere $84, I'm done? And a trained ear would be hard pressed to tell the difference between this and anything else? I guess I dont even need fancy connectors either, just perhaps solder/tin the ends and feed it through (or around) the speaker post? This is a very enticing option. This cabling is after all mostly hidden in my walls! I just need to kill that voice is the back on my head say "are you sure about this?" I can just picture my ULTRALINK dealer rolling his eyes... Marvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 ---------------- On 3/8/2004 12:39:32 PM MarvinG wrote: If I go the Group 2 route, I can go with ramelectronics.com (http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/speaker-cables.html) who have very respectable product (see desc with partial hype below) ay a total cost of $339 US. I figure these cables are on par with Ultralink excelsior, but are 30% cheaper. ---------------- No, they're not on par with Excelsior. They're more on par with the Custom Install (CL-3) BiWire stuff, which I can sell you a whole roll (250ft) of, with ends, for a lot less than $339. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 ---------------- On 3/8/2004 2:28:22 PM MarvinG wrote: I can just picture my ULTRALINK dealer rolling his eyes... Marvin ---------------- I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinG Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 Re the partsexpress wire option: 1) If I wanted to terminate the SJ wire with bananaplugs (and had no crimping tools) does partsxexpress also sell ready-to-use banana plugs eg with flat or hex screw connectors ? Could someone post the exact links on what to order? 2) If I never intended to bi-wire, is there any merit in 4 conductor cable vs 2 wire? I am assuming the Group 1 position is no, how can we claim one wire will sound better than anotherif we dont believe in the Group 2 or Group 3 camps? 3) If I do go with the 4 wire route, which of the two leads do you parallel for positive and which for negative? Is it black/green together for negative and red/white together for positive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 You can solder some types of banana plugs, and there are some that have a compression type nut that you can screw to tighten down on the wire. Is there any merit in 4 conductor wire vs. 2 conductor? Well, you have a larger effective gauge wire, so there is less loss, but then again on the runs you have, there will be next to no loss even with 14 gauge two conductor wire. If you do the 4 conductor route, there are no magical color combinations. Whatever works for you , just make them all the same. I see that you are from Toronto, so instead of buying from Parts Express in Ohio, just head to your local electrical wholesaler/retailer and purchase some carol wire and save yourself the duty and exchange. Oh, and radio shack here has some nice banana plugs, including locking ones that have a sleeve to turn and expand the pin that contacts the 5 way binding post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 ---------------- 1) If I wanted to terminate the SJ wire with bananaplugs (and had no crimping tools) does partsxexpress also sell ready-to-use banana plugs eg with flat or hex screw connectors ? Could someone post the exact links on what to order? ---------------- Here you go, three pages of CONNECTORS; BANANA PLUGS at parts express. ---------------- 2) If I never intended to bi-wire, is there any merit in 4 conductor cable vs 2 wire? ---------------- It merits are to bi-wire (like you mentioned) as well as a way of getting an 8 or 10 gauge by grouping smaller wires. Anything over 12gauge is rare in 2-Cond, but it does exist. ---------------- 3) If I do go with the 4 wire route, which of the two leads do you parallel for positive and which for negative? Is it black/green together for negative and red/white together for positive? ---------------- I would tend to group the wires which are diagonally across from each other to create a balanced magnetic field and it costs nothing but doubt it would make much of a difference. Gil may be able to elaborate on this though Later... Rob PS: opps, I hadnt notice Michael had already addressed these points and hes right about getting the wire locally if you are in Canada like your signature mentions. You could also check out Take Five Audio for a Canadian connector dealership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 ---------------- It merits are to bi-wire ... ---------------- Hey! This isn't the Rosie O'Donnel forum is it? Seriously, don't forget cable lifters. Be sure to lift the HF wires above the LF wires. Invert them and you will have muddy bass and low highs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Marvin: one of the things that I forgot to ask is the intended usage of the said speaker wire. Up until now, I had assumed that the wire we were talking about would be run exposed. If you are intending to install wiring through the walls, there are certain requirements that SJ wire, or ordinary speaker wire / zip cord will not meet, namely fire retaradance. If you do not wish to see the exposed jacket of the wire laying along the baseboards, there are speciality wires available with ultra flat conductors that can be run under carpet, and wire that has a paintable jacket. These are considerations that you may wish to think about before laying down a few bucks for wire. Wire that meets code for in wall usage will be advertised and marked CL3 - FT4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinG Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 Michael - re intended usage, I guess it's part in-wall part exposed. Specifically: -centre is exposed. -fronts runs through the floor into the basement, along the ceiling (below joists but above a drop ceiling) and back up through the floor behind the equipment rack. Same actaully for an ULTRALINK sub-woofer cable. Not sure if thats considered in-wall or exposed -surrounds are the same as the fronts, except for 7 feet which would be hidden and fished through the wall. Re building code rules etc, would an SJ cable really be any different from an ULTRALINK option in this regard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 You definitely want to use CL3-FT4 wire in the walls, and it wouldn't be very economical to buy non-CL3 just for the center run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinG Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 If I use ULTRALINK Excelsour cable, is it CL3-FT4 ? What is the actaul concern here - do these cables heat up and cause a potential fire hazard? That would be a concern! I expect most users hide there surround sound cables in the wall. Are they all non-compliant with a building code and taking a risk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Yes local building codes cover cable types being run in walls....and normal zipcord is normally not acceptable..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinG Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 I guess I'm still confused by the answer which says "Yes local building codes cover cable types being run in walls." So does this mean there is no issue with ULTRALINK or CAROL cables? Specifically: If I use ULTRALINK Excelsior cable in the wall, is it CL3-FT4 ? If I use ULTRALINK Excelsior cable in the wall , is it covered by the building code? If I use CAROL 12 guage pro-sound cable in the wall , is it covered by building code? Thanks Marvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 It isn't a problem of the cables heating up at all, it is the problem of fire retardance, or more specifically the lack there of. We must use drywall or gypsum board to prevent the spread of flame and to allow any persons in a house fire to escape without injury. If you have ever lit any pvc or vinyl wire insulation on fire, it smokes quite a bit and drips like wax, spreading fire. Now imagine that your light switch started to arc and burn. With no fire retardants in the wire jacket, the fire would spread like wildfire throughout the wall. In a very short time, the whole house would be ablaze. Remember the fire at a downstairs club last year when the band great white played with pyrotechnincs? The entire club became engulfed in flames and smoke when egg crate foam ignited, and burned rapidly, producing black clouds of smoke. It was later found that the owner of the club had installed this foam to reduce noise complaints. However, the place that sold the foam to the owner specified that this was packaging foam, and not fire retardant, therefore not suitible for acoustical control. Tragically, many people lost their lives to this mistake. All in the name of saving a few dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinG Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 Ahh - ok , got it - dah - some cables are not fire retardant, and as all cables in walls are covered by the building code, one should therfore only put a fire retardant cable in the walls. So: If I use ULTRALINK Excelsior cable in the wall, would it comply with the code? If I use CAROL 12 guage pro-sound cable in the wall , would it comply with the code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 No and no. Go to www.ultralinkcables.com, then select "products" from the drop down menu, then "retail", then "audio", then "premium speaker wire" scroll down until you see "custom installation series in-wall cable". You notice that it says "in-wall" and cl3-ft4 on the jacket. This is what you need. Also, has a round, smooth low friction jacket for easy pulling through conduits, rough holes in lumber etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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