Speaker cabling - where is the point of dimisinhing returns?

[MarvinG]

For my new KLIPSCH's arriving soon, I need a 35 foot run for the fronts and a 55 foot run for the surrounds.

Now I know crappy cables vs decent cables makes a differnce, but surely there's a point of diminishing returns here. There is also the need to seperate the marketing hype from what really does make an audible difference - not to mention getting biggest bang for the buck.

I've been told by some that Home Depot 12 guage wire is fine...also heard the other extreme where given the investment in HT equipment, dont skimp on the cabling - it's a component like any other. But then one gets into the merits of teflon vs PVC insulation, and WBT crimp sleeves and connectors, etc because it makes a difference. Does it? Where is the comprommise?

What do most KLIPSCH owners use in this regard? Home Depot? Monster? UltraLink? Bettercables, CatTails?

Thanks

Marvin

[Griffinator]

Here we go again...

Not your fault, Marvin, but we do this dance about once every 2-3 weeks, either here or on the 2-channel forum.

Here's the basics:

The forum is split 3 ways.

First group says you can use cheap industrial-grade RG6 or RG59 for interconnects and 12 gauge electrical wire for speakers and it will sound just as good as anything else. This is a small, but vocal portion of our community.

Second group says that well-constructed, reasonably priced cables by Ultralink, Cobalt, Bluejean, or several other manufacturers is best bet. This is the majority of the forum.

Third group experiments with all manner of price point cables trying to find their musical nirvana. This is a small bunch that doesn't really throw much weight around, for fear of ridicule by the first group.

The vast majority of all three groups will tell you that Monster is overrated and/or overpriced.

I happen to subscribe to theory #2

[michael hurd]

The point of diminishing returns depends on who you ask. Some people listen to speakers in the worst rooms ie: square rooms with little regard for acoustical treatment. Some of these people claim that there is an audible difference if you paint the edge of your cd's with a special green marker. Others still proclaim that adding a heavy granite or marble block on top of your amp has sonic benefits.

[michael hurd]

Just do a forum search on speaker wire, and you will find all the information you will possibly need.

As for gauge of wire needed, you need at least 16 gauge wire for the surround runs, and the same for the front. On the other hand, 12 gauge is not that much more expensive, so I would recommend 12 gauge for the main and center, with either 14 or 12 to the surrounds as well.

[kktvbob]

Some pepole like cat5 diy cables. I was using Audioquest Midnight cables on the main speakers and radio shack magacables (the flat ones). When I upgraded I moved my amp so I'm now using magacbles on the mains also the midnights are only 6'. Stereofile mag a few years ago said the magacables came close to the high priced ones. Can you hear the difference maybe but at what price. I have not tried the cat5 braid, if you have cat5 left over you can try it. If not you can try the radioshack the price is not bad. Everyone has their favorite cables. What I need to do when I have time is to move my amp and do a test between the midnights and the magacable to see if their is a difference. I also may build some cat5s to try. When their is time.

[SteelerFan]

Theory 2 subscriber here.

[mandi]

Wow, where do I get the special green marker from?

[WMcD]

Marvin,

I'm in the camp of "wire is wire". Other people in the camp are PWK and a guy from McIntosh. They should know.

I bought the LMS PC based system which is pretty much an industry standard for frequency response. I learned a lot.

I ran some tests on runs of speaker wire. The result was that there is no appreasable loss. This was based on what the amplifier puts into the wire versus what the speaker sees at the end of the wire.

After some initial runs on the computer, I didn't make methodical tests of size of wire versus lenght. It all seemed pointless. But it would be something valuable for all concerned and who want hard data. I should do it.

I'd agree that 12 gauge over a long run in the living rooom will preserve the signal. I suspect that even 16 gauge would do almost the same.

There IS a debate with subjective testing (I heard something big) versus objective (the test equipment says there is little different) testing.

Myself, I rely on the machines. If there is no measured difference, we have to look elsewhere for problems to be recognized and solved. Room acoustics and speaker placement are much more influential on all aspects of our goals of good sound, than wire.

Granted, some good fellows here will say that they have bought or made some non traditional wire or interconnects and found remarkable improvements of sound. I just can't believe that objective data can be found to support it.

I don't know how people can even find "crappy" wire. It is mostly all the same copper and similar insulation. There is some rebranding and hype. I'd spend the bucks if I thought there was any significant improvement. So would Klipsch or Mac.

Best,

Gil

I now await polite responses. Grrr.

[wheelman]

Heck they got a plate now you stick on your cd or dvd. That looks like a cd,dvd. Green marker your in the stone ages.

[Deang]

Gil,

Cables with similiar geometry measure the same -- regardless of claims by the manufacturers. However, solid and stranded in braided geometries, as well as ribbon types, where the conductors are in very close proximity to each -- should show elevated inductance, and lower capacitance than your normal stranded fair. In fact, some cable, like Alpha Core Goertz for example -- have inductance so high, they can cause some solid state amplifiers to go into oscillation.

I like Kimber 4tc and 8tc, because the braided geometry offers some shielding from RFI and EMI.

[ygmn]

I am for school 1.....as long as the wire is large enough...then no sonic difference....

I found a good 10awg wire real cheap...about 33 cents per foot.....which was better then the Home depot zip cord pricing in 12 awg....

[raist679]

I would have to say I'm of school #2. I've tried listenin to cables at both ends of the spectrum and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference to me. Monster is definitely overated. You just need some proper gauge well constructed cable IMHO.

[MrMcGoo]

I am in the camp that believes copper wire is essentially the same except for gage and the quality of the insulation.

If you use 10 or 12 awg wire, you need to tin the ends or leave excess wire so the wire can be trimmed. The ends of plain copper speaker wire get verdigris. Verdigris is the green mung (copper oxide) that degrades the quality of the connection over time. You can tin the wire to prevent this or trim ends. If you trim ends, leave excess cable.

Bill

[yromj]

I'm in camp No. 1 w/ speaker wire, and camp no. 2 w/ interconnects.

Wire is wire, but I can see how the quality and durability of the terminals on the interconnects can make a difference.

My wire runs are very similar to yours. When I upgraded my speakers I seriously considered upgrading from 16 ga. all around to 12 ga. for the surrounds because of the distances involved. I did some research and found that the difference would be ~0.5 dB, so I didn't bother. However, as someone else pointed out, there's not much price difference between 16 and 12 ga. and if I were starting from scratch I would run 12 just for the "warm and fuzzies".

John

[dougdrake]

FWIW - I got the following from Accessories4Less (www.accessories4less.com) , which sells some pretty good name-brand stuff at nice prices. I've picked up quite a bit of IXOS speaker wire and jumper cables from them. Maybe this will help you if you are in Camp #2...

DEAR VALUED CUSTOMERS,

<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = LB />Date of sale: MARCH 2004

WAREHOUSE OVERSTOCK SALE!!

WE ARE OFFERING BUY 2 GET 1 FREE FOR ALL ACOUSTIC RESEARCH HT PRO-I SERIES CABLES. COMPONENT, S-VIDEO, COMPOSITE, DIGITAL/TOSLINK, AUDIO CABLES ALL ON SALE. THIS SALE ALSO INCLUDES: HT WALL PLATES, SPEAKERS WIRE AND SPLITTERS. EXCLUDES MASTER AND PRO-II SERIES CABLES.

BUY TWO OF THE SAME HT MODELS AND RECEIVE THE THIRD HT MODEL FREE! MUST BE IDENTICAL CABLE MODELS.

EXAMPLE:

BUY 2 HT-191 COMPONENT CABLES GET 1 HT-191 FREE, BUY 2 HT-360 SPOOLS OF SPEAKER WIRE AND GET 1 HT-360 FREE..........

JUST ADD 3 TO THE CART AND GET CHARGED ONLY FOR 2 ITEMS, ITS THAT EASY. BUY MORE THAN 3 - SAVE 33% OFF REGULAR PRICE.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED SUPPORT.

SINCERELY

STAFF

[formica]

I'm in camp 1 for speaker wire, but camp 1-2 for interconnects.

Depending on the run length and RFI-EMI present, interconnects are more susceptible to audible interference given the fact that the signal/noise carried by them gets highly amplified. The connectors have to simply make good contact and be durable. Id also like to mention companies like BlueJean do use industrial off-the-shelf coax (mostly belden which have good quality control) so are they part of camp 1 or 2?

While recently setting up my computer for software RTA, I was forced to use a 30ft interconnect as my computer in an adjacent room. Dipping into a box of odd and end wires I tried 3 of them before I found one without any serious hum. The wires were tried by simply plugging in one end into my preamp and the other end was free (to avoid a ground loop hum). Ironically it was the least expensive of the three which had no hum, but unfortunately for me, it was only 25ft long. A well-shielded wire should not suffer from this... but price doesnt dictate it. I may retest it when I receive the bulk Belden wire I ordered.

For speaker wire, I believe it must be of reasonable gauge and corrosion free. The possible induced RFI-EMI noise should be proportionately much smaller than the AC audio signal and therefore less significant.

Dont loose to much sleep over it...

Rob

PS: just for reference, none of the tested wires were brand name...

[doudou]

bigger the cables are and smaller the resistance of cables is.

that s what i get during my studies on physics.

some materials are better for some frequency ranges(eg silver is better for high frequencies)

i use to get some very expansive cables.now i use a large section electical cables of 6mm²(sorry for the units but i come from france so i don t know how feets and inches works)

it sounds almost as good as my old monster cables and it s cheaper(about 2 euros for a meter.)

so don t waste money anymore;-)

[IndyKlipschFan]

Gil... Your my hero!

Even the facts can't sway the people on speaker cables. LOL

I bought better interconnects going from a pre amp to the amp and other components using monster. Something about gold to gold sounded good, and it was a saturday and had a little extra cash..LOL.

BTW "Home Depot 12 guage wire is fine." HD, as well as Lowes in the electrical section where contractors buy it off the spools...NOT next to the telephone section marked up. FYI, They have oxygen free, good, plastic covered, bigger strand, 12 guage wire... I doubt you would notice ANY difference in a million years even in constrction quality let alone the truth in the numbers to similar Monster Cable except a lot more in your pocket too. (more cd's, more dvd's, dinner out with your significant other, get lucky... OK, maybe that is pushing it from just saving money but you get my point.)

Again GIL to the rescue... Some say it is half full, some say it is half empty... I say it smells like a great cup of coffee....and enjoy tasting and drinking it!!

[MarvinG]

1) Approx what price range are we talking for the HD route - something like $1/foot?

2) Are you cautioning to take care even in HD as there may be two sections sellinng 12 gauge speaker wire , only one of which is the good stuff?

Marvin

[Griffinator]

There are plenty of great speaker wire manufacturers that can do better than $1 a foot. Home Depot's stuff is selling for like $0.30 per foot. Hell, I can sell you Ultralink Standard 12G wire for 0.50 per foot if you buy the spool (500ft)