Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 I'm sure this has been brought up before, but what the hey... I find it silly that so many people will spend bookoo bucks on speaker wires, interconnects, isolation mats, "magic crystals", different amps, preamps, speakers, etc., when they are listening in a room with obtuse wall designs and layout, who knows what flooring, reflective wall surfaces, and God knows what for furniture. Seems too many people are caught up in trying to make their system fit their room, which usually, if not using a room vat least semi-appropriate for the use, will invole a lot of component switching looking for the "right" sound, instead of trying to bring their room to the equipment that they already have. Would anyone argue that a given piece of equipment, say a speaker, will sound considerably different in a rock cave, a school gymnasium, a 70's carpeted cube van and an anechoic chamber? Why keep buying different "stuff" to get that sound you want, instead of effectivly configuring/structuring the room around the equipment you already have? Being a casual NASCAR fan, I hear talk of the track coming to the car. The car is set up at one point, and though the track isn't at that point at the time, they know, for instance, that the sun is coming out and the track temps will be going up by 30 degrees before the next scheduled tire change. They make changes, according to the changes they expect to be coming. In a listening room, the changes are fairly non-existant, unless efected upon by the listener, The room doesen't change size, the materials don't change. Why not bring your room to your system, it's significantly cheaper than buying new equipment, will most likely have a profound effect on the sound of the system, and has the potential to increase the WAF at the same time. Sounds like a win win situation to me. Just an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Amen. I do not pretend that I know much about acoustics at all, but I do believe that the room is the most single important aspect in the reproduction of sound. However, we usually must make a compromise somewhere. For most of us, that is the room, especially those of us that rent or live in apartments like me. I do not subscribe to the camp that swaps their gear like some people change underwear, but if it keeps them happy, then I am happy for them. But to tell someone new that comes here to learn something that they need $$$ silver wire, magic rocks and vinyl? That is where I like to chime in. If you like records, that's fine with me, but telling someone that they have to buy tubes and vinyl, that's just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Ive brought this up before, and got seriously frowned upon at other forums... lol... you are on the right track and that is what counts. Let them buy magic crystals and green markers ... as trying to sell good physics to them is harder than selling them swamp land. The only thing Im not sure about, is improving WAF with acoustic treatments... esp in a multipurpose rooms like many of us have... so count yourself lucky if it works in your home... Later... Rob PS: what did a 70s carpeted cube van sound like inside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I completely agree. Dimension of the speaker to room is crucial too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_Shomaker Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I think I'm going to have to agree too. I heard the heresys in a bigger room than mine and they sounded so much better. It was like going to a completely different pair of speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Beer Budget, You'll get no argument from me. But like Michael said, for a lot of people the room is the given that has to be accepted. It's just a lot easier to change the sonics through a piece of equipment that colors the sound one way or another than it is to build a different room or to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Some people seem to feel that just because they live in an something like an apartment situation, that they cant apply any acoustical improvement to their listening environment. This absolutely just not true. There are many manufactured products on the market which make a significant improvement in the sound without being installed permanently. Theyre not messy or shed debris. They dont have to be glued or screwed to the walls. Many are free standing. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what you do with your equipment, in virtually all domestic environments you are in fact listening to the room, not your system. Why anyone is willing to spend thousands on equipment & not even $500 for some acoustical improvements is beyond me. So Paul, I'm going to diagree with you on this one. The room in many cases may be a 'given'. But that doesn't mean you can't do anything about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Well, I can see both sides... It is far easier (and possibly more rewarding in the short term) to spend a few dollars on "little" tweaks than to seriously address an acoustics problem (typically BIG $$ unless you can do it yourself). How many of us are actually PERMANENTLY located? I am not going to purposely give my house a "white-elephant" room with uneven walls and ceilings, and sound-absorbing underlayments, etc. Most potential home buyers don't care if it's acoustically perfect. They just want a place to watch TV, do their sewing, etc. and they may want to use it for (gasp!) other-than-audio-purposes. Since I don't add anything to the overall sellable price of the house by accoustic modifications to a particular space, it really is not a good investment dollar-wise. The tweaks like cables and interconnects can go with me; the acoustically perfect room cannot. So I completely understand both points of view, but I have to go with the "transportable" tweaks for now. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 D-Man, those are some pretty lame excuses. With dedicated Home Theaters becoming increasingly popular, more & more noise issues are exposing themselves in domestic environments, addressing sound isolation issues & acoustics can add significant value to your home. One look at the web sites of building product manufacturer companies like Owens Corning and you can see that there is definitely a market developing for better sound isolation & noise control in homes. http://www.owenscorning.com/around/sound/hownoise.asp Improving the acoustical performance of your home or a particular space is hardly going to turn it into a white elephant. As a matter of fact, in my room, virtually all of the surficial acoustical improvements can be easily removed with no or very little repair being required upon its removal. Not much more than whats required for hanging pictures/artwork, wall shelves, etc. Its not necessarily expensive either. The curved Masonite panels in my room cost no more than $100 or $150 plus a can of paint. These can be squeezed between the floor & ceiling forming the bend with no permanent attachment to the walls or ceiling. You can buy (6) 2x4x4 panels of Owens Corning FR705 rigid fiberglass & some linen to cover it for under $200. You can buy (10) 24x18x2.5 sheets of open cell foam from PartsExpress for less than $50. These can be attached non-permanently to walls & ceiling with 1-1/2 or 2 steel T-pins available from most any office supply store (<$2 for a box of 100). They also have corner/ceiling bass traps 24 high for $25 each. Two to four of these in the rear corners of the room can have a dramatic impact on the low-end performance and aid with mid & high frequencies too. There are free-standing acoustical traps & diffusers too. So the fact of the matter is that you can take all or most of the acoustical materials with you. And if you cant afford the above mentioned products & prices, what the hell are you doing in hobby like audio anyway? Unlike when I first built my room, there are many more products available, much wider range of price points, and access to lots of information on the internet (you dont have to be a professional to have the info at your fingertips anymore). Furthermore, many of the same products & construction methods used to isolate noise & sound transmission, as well as acoustical absorption & diffusion, also provide increased R value (thermal insulation) to the walls, floors & ceiling, making the room more comfortable year around, as well as saving energy. You say it is far easier to spend a few dollars on "little" tweaks than to seriously address an acoustics problem? LMAO. Dollar for dollar, making even minor acoustical improvements to your room will yield far bigger gains in performance than any of the tweak theories floating around or changing components. The fact of the matter is that it's well-known in high end audio, that to achieve full potential, the last link in the audio chain has to be properly set up. Audio, like any other chain, cannot be stronger than its weakest link. For modern audio systems, the weakest link is also the last link, the listening room. That's why the opportunities for setting up the home theater/listening room mean more than just the equipment. It means the room acoustics as well. Its no coincidence that the first link in the audio chain is also the same as the last. The Room. Its also no coincidence that recording studios & control rooms, mastering studios, concert halls/auditoriums, even rehearsal rooms, all have acoustical treatment. Anyone who thinks their domestic listening room doesnt need it to bring the best out of their playback equipment and the recording itself are sadly mistaken. Last but not least (here comes the flaming part), it find it utterly amazing that those individuals who keep making up excuses for not doing any acoustical improvements, are the same people who for the most part have never even attempted any acoustical improvements of their own. While some things can get complicated, the basics are not rocket science. Being arrogant (like I sometimes am) is one thing. Preferring to remain ignorant and still argue or make excuses against it is something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 In most of the apartments I lived in, in the past, the most serious problem to high fidelity was having to keep the volume really low. If you've got neighbors and the typical thin walls, thin ceilings, thin floors, and you don't want to offend them, you have to keep the volume way down below satisfactory levels. At one apartment complex my neighbor was the manager, and she got irate if I had my amp past the first notch (out of 10 notches). I suppose you could do some serious soundproofing. It doesn't apply to me now, but what would you suggest, Art, for apartment dwellers in these kinds of circumstances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFinco Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 ---------------- On 3/19/2004 7:15:32 PM paulparrot wrote: In most of the apartments I lived in, in the past, the most serious problem to high fidelity was having to keep the volume really low. If you've got neighbors and the typical thin walls, thin ceilings, thin floors, and you don't want to offend them, you have to keep the volume way down below satisfactory levels. At one apartment complex my neighbor was the manager, and she got irate if I had my amp past the first notch (out of 10 notches). I suppose you could do some serious soundproofing. It doesn't apply to me now, but what would you suggest, Art, for apartment dwellers in these kinds of circumstances? ---------------- I'm curious about this as well--apartment soundproofing is very costly. I've known one person that had permission from the landlord and actually soundproofed and THX spec'd his apt (calibrator for Marcus theaters-1 bedroom apartment with $130,000 worth of gear-10ft screen, DLP projector-Lexicon, parasound, B&W, etc etc) but I know he payed BUKU bucks for all of those treatments.. I'm rather lucky in that my apartment is actually HIGHLY sound resistant, and was built like that on purpose but this is a rareity. provide some links for some of these treatments that are available please?! I and other apartment dwellers would love to know!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 ---------------- On 3/18/2004 7:54:43 PM D-MAN wrote: Well, I can see both sides... It is far easier (and possibly more rewarding in the short term) to spend a few dollars on "little" tweaks than to seriously address an acoustics problem (typically BIG $$ unless you can do it yourself). How many of us are actually PERMANENTLY located? I am not going to purposely give my house a "white-elephant" room with uneven walls and ceilings, and sound-absorbing underlayments, etc. Most potential home buyers don't care if it's acoustically perfect. They just want a place to watch TV, do their sewing, etc. and they may want to use it for (gasp!) other-than-audio-purposes. Since I don't add anything to the overall sellable price of the house by accoustic modifications to a particular space, it really is not a good investment dollar-wise. The tweaks like cables and interconnects can go with me; the acoustically perfect room cannot. So I completely understand both points of view, but I have to go with the "transportable" tweaks for now. DM ---------------- Portable bass traps and acoustic panels can go with you. They don't have to stay in the house. Furthermore, for the WAF-conscious, there are companies out there (which I sell) like Kinetics who specialize in aesthetically-pleasing noise control and acoustic correction products. Either way, permanent installation is not necessarily a MUST. I've been screaming all along (since I started frequenting this forum) that you should never hard-mount a 'glass panel to your wall, as it does a much better job when it's hanging, not fixed. It's a lot easier to patch up a hole in the ceiling with spackling when you move out than it is to remove a hard-mounted series of acoustic panels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 ---------------- On 3/19/2004 7:33:51 PM RFinco wrote: provide some links for some of these treatments that are available please?! I and other apartment dwellers would love to know!! ---------------- A smart DIY enthusiast would build false walls using OC 703 acoustic panels and bare 2x4's to tame the sound transfer to the apartment next door. It ain't as expensive as it sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 If you wanted to use art I hear oil paintings are really good absorber. I think spikes and cones definetly tend to improve imaging and bass control. NOt so sloppy like my typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Remember that he is talking about sound reduction and not proofing. Its not that easy to improve the sound transmission of an existing apt for all frequencies and noises as they require different treatments. In wood structures, bass frequencies are hardest to tame as you require mass which isnt easily added, and moving is usually the only solution for anyone except the owner. In concrete structures, your concern would be the shared walls and impact noises from the slabs as bass transmission above and below is usually handled by the structures mass. In this case, building a room within the room will work quite well... and the only special products required a decoupler for the flooring system (plastic, rubber, foam mats, etc... frequently placed between the finished floors substrate and the structure itself). As expensive as it is, a detached home is one of the best ways to soundproof from your neighbours... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Very interesting thread. Does sound-proofing a room make it a better sounding room or does it simply prevent the sound from escaping? By sound-proofing, do you automatically get more volume from your system (all things equal) or just an increase in certain frequencies? Suppose someone could care less about escaping SPL and is simply trying for the best sound - is there an obvious relation between SP and room acoustics? Thanks for all the useful ideas and tips - Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Looking for that next step towards tonal truth? Progress ye towards a flatter, more accurate frequency response. Get out your picture hanging tools. Dampen ye walls! I now think room treatments are an integral part of any home movie and music reproduction system. I encourage all tweaking audiophiles to consider RealTrap acoustic treatment panels for their systems. They hang like pictures - same marks, same steps. Remove like pictures too. Pack them up with your stereo when you leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Jbryan, absolutely! There are many factors you want to consider, but the basics are absorbtion and diffusion of the standing waves inside the room. The goal is to provide broadband ( high and low frequency ) absorption, and to diffuse standing wave patterns. However, soundproofing a room is a lot different than adding acoustical control products. Usually when we talk soundproof, this means that sound is not transferred throughtout the structure, from room to room. This is quite complicated, as the building materials themselves will pass on vibrations through mechanical fasteners- ie: nails, etc. Any holes in the vapour barier, wall outlets, etc allows a direct path for sound to escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Soundproofing a room does not improve the acoustics of the room itself.... but by preventing exterior noises from entering it allows you the hear the sounds which are there rather than background noise. Kinda like the road noise difference between a Lexus and a Tercel... Rob PS: note that small defects may also become more obvious in a quiet room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Thanks Michael and I'm sorry for hijacking this thread. Since its in a basement surrounded by masonry walls and 8' of dirt, I'm not looking to sound-proof my listening room. The room is L-shaped but the listening area is approx 15'D with Khorns spaced about 12' apart on a 30' wall. One side of the area is open to the rest of the room and I sit approx. 18' away from each speaker with a stairway behind the sitting position. The ceiling is 7.5' tall with enclosed ductwork around the parameter and acoustic tile stapled to faring strips. I can't really do anything with the ceiling and it doesn't buzz so I can only hope that its OK and the surrounding ductwork somehow helps to break up the waves a bit. The Khorns have false corners so I can move them around with the right one pretty much sits in a corner but slightly forward-facing. The left speaker is positioned about halfway down the 30' wall just under the main duct trunk. My goal is to make the room as system-friendly as possible and I am considering installing drywall over the existing wood paneling. Another approach may be to remove the paneling and drape muslin over the studs. The studs may help break up any standing waves and the masonry will provide excellent damping. Since the listening position backs up to the rear wall/stairway, I'm also considering some kind of slat wall construction there to reinforce the bass frequencies. I'm now using a few thick blankets under a tapestry on the wall which seems to help somewhat. I'm open to any and all suggestions and would appreciate any help offered. Thanks -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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