Seb Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 you get more bass when setting the xover at 80 because more signal is sent to your sub, which is going to put out more than your speakers even at 80hz, probably. but more does not mean better in this case because I'M pretty sure the sb3 will reproduce a cleaner 80hz signal than the sub. therefore, 60 or 70 would be better, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 seb makes a great point. u can have a great low bass sub like his para or my velo hgs 18", but it still may not be as tight & a better producer getting up around 60-100hz as some of the large front mains. that 80hz THX standard was designed w/ small speakers & a sub in mind. i agree w/ ht that using the receiver bass mgmt & the small setting sounds better than doing that w/ the large setting, but that's w/ the given (read - set in stone) receiver cut-off point of 80-100hz. because of that ht & brian f. are imho more correct than not. but it's hard to believe that a fixed cut-off point of say 80hz is the exact point where all types of speakers & subs blend together for the best bass quality. my gripe is that the receiver should have an adjustable filter point (like the sony es f.e.). but since most of our a/v receivers don't have, my gripe is moot. thanks though ht as this thread helps in making the points. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-13-2001 at 07:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 I have a question pertaining to this topic and invite everyone to exercise their brain trying to answer it. Just in case I ever get time to open the box and set up my Denon 3801,I'm wondering(in advance)whether I should run my speakers large or small.I have Klipsch KSP300 powered towers in the four corners of my room(16X20).I also have a Klipsch KSP-C6 center and Klipsch KSP-S6 surrounds.The towers have the typical 2 pair of speaker level inputs,with the jumper straps,and also both low level in/out and LFE in/out.Both have separate volume control.I also have two Klipsch subwoofers and am considering using one for a center channel sub.I understand the 3801 has a fixed sub out set at 80Hz.I listen to music primarily,but enjoy watching a good movie occasionally.The original idea was to try multichannel music so I'll take what I can get for HT. Any and all responses are appreciated. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 keith, i'd daisy chain all the lfe ins of the ksp to the sub out. of course put the s6 on surround b & set it to run A+B for the theater modes & only A on 5 channel stereo. set all to small. forget the subs. u don't need those. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 keith, then again use those subs in the loops to your c6 front center (like u said) & your new rear surrounds direct speakers. & then of course u wanna set any channels w/ a seperate sub wired in to large. however u end up wiring, that should be 1 sweet set-up. i'd like to hear it! This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-14-2001 at 05:39 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Thanks for the info boa.Believe me there is absolutely no lack of bass.Thanks for the response! Anyone else? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 u bet keith. i forgot to add, & as drew said, those powered towers make the large vs. small setting an easy choice if you use the line connects to them. that is a real plus for powered towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 Thanks boa.It appears to my stupid self that the ONLY way to go with my speakers(which is the reason I bought them)is front L/R large,center large(with center sub)surround S-6's large,and surround back 300's large.LFE to SW12II subwoofer and maybe even daisy-chaining the front 300's LFE in with the SW12II.Who knows?I'll just have to give it a try.Would like some more suggestions from someone that has maybe used powered towers.BTW,speaker(high)level to all speakers,line level LFE only. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 keith, just back from the Pac. NW i did have rp-3, then rp-5 for a few months before going the sep. sub route, & it does sound like they have the exact same connections as the ksp. & did have them wired as i recommended above for what i thought was the best results. depends how u wire them. if u wired them just speaker level w/ the gold bridges on, then u may want to explore the large setting. but if u wire the sub sections line level (which is what i thought sounded much better) to the LFE in (nonfiltered) jacks, make the front speaker level connection to the ksp high speaker posts & leave the bridges on (as recommended), then it really doesn't make much dif if u set fronts small or large (as hopefully is obvious). as i said to an rp-3 dude, i wouldn't connect the sub out(s) to the ksp Line In because it's also filtered (as is the denon sub out jack output) so u could get the not good dual (cascading) filtering effect. don't let the LFE jack term klipsch uses fool ya. it really should be called NONFILTERED SUB INPUT. it's a straight unfiltered shot to your sub section & imho is the best connection to a receiver's FILTERED sub out jack. believe me my short yet extensive experience w/ the klipsch RP really filled me in. ask BobG. that's when i got on this forum & bugged the hell out of him . ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Hey boa, I understand what you're saying,I think. Since these speakers have built in subs I would not consider running them "small" so its just a matter of sending them a full range signal,either via speaker level or line level to sub section.Since there is no problem with lack of lows,and since the speakers seem to have a little more clarity in the hi's via speaker level,I'll try that first with receiver sub out to LFE in on front L/R........................My wife's pestering the piss out of me so I'll be back later boa Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 yea keith if u use ONLY speaker level connections w/ the straps on & no other subs, then u'd set sub:no & fronts:large. i found though the bass tightened up & had more impact using the ole sony's sub preout & line connections to the rp LFE ins. should still leave the straps on though so u don't lose any bass in the cracks. i'd then of course set sub:yes & fronts:small. the fronts:large setting will send full range to the high level & sub section by way of the straps. however the small setting will start cutting the bass at 80hz down to the high level & straps, & instead send it to the line connect. so u shouldn't hear much dif w/ either setting though i thought w/ the fronts:small the sub section bass sounded a lil better & the high level drivers were less overloaded & had more detail. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-17-2001 at 08:46 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 boa,after straightening my wife out I got to reading the Denon owners manual and came away with a headache.I just got back from Circuit City with a Bose Wave radio. It sounds so good I'm thinking about just selling off all this Klipsch stuff. Oh yeah,welcome back.And thanks for the help. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 keith, yea great to be back to the extreme heat & humidity of the midwest. that bose wave's gotta sound better than my sony dream machine but for the same dollars couldn't u get a set of quintets to hook to that sony es? or does the wave have an alarm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacevedo Posted July 20, 2001 Share Posted July 20, 2001 I still think that the whole large/small setting is not so cut and dry. After reading everywhere that I should set my speakers to small, and let the sub handle it all, I tried it. Sounded good. But I still felt I was lacking that mid-bass punch. So I played with the settings, setting everything to large. I like the sound a lot better this way. The bass is more articulated and defined. The sub has plenty of low rumble, but not a lot of articulation, so the other speakers pick up that slack. Of course, it helps that my Denon has a sub setting of LFE + Main. It takes the LFE signal, plus any speakers set to small. But the + Main also sends it the bass from all channels set to large. Also, my Denon has ample power, so I am not worried about straining it with large settings. My Klipsch speakers can hit theater levels with 16W of power! My receiver can put out 92 X 5 all channels driven simultaneously according to Sound & Vision. I don't think I will ever come close to that mark, in that I never watch movies at reference, and probably only require a few watts of power. I still agree with Boa, an adjustable crossover would help with the same problem. My sub is definitely better in the lower octaves, but my mains are much better in the higher bass area. I am just lucky that I can have the best of both worlds in my setup, but an adjustable crossover would be more efficient in that my mains could be freed of the lower bass, but still keep the mid bass. 80 Hz just seems to high of a crossover point for an 8" mid bass woofer. I also think the problem is that the crossover in the denon has a -3db of 80 Hz - so it is cutting the bass even before the stated crossover point. It would probably be better if it started cutting at 80 Hz, instead of about 100 Hz. Also, I think you are really asking a lot from a sub to play back the bass from 6 channels! If you have an explosion that sends bass to all 6 channels (5 + LFE), your sub not only has to play back LFE at +10db, but all of the other 5 channels as well. It can easily be overloaded and become compressed. I still think the best solution is to have 5 full range speakers with their own subs, plus an LFE sub. Unless of course you have SVS subs which can handle it. I would love to hear HornEd's set up - as I bet it totally kicks! You can see my equipment list below for the specifics of what I have. ------------------ Thanks, Bryan "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi 60" RPTV (VS60603) Denon AVR 3801 RCVR Denon DVM 1800 DVD JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Klipsch RB5 - L&R Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall surrounds Klipsch KSW12 - Sub Monster Power Conditioner Radio Shack Gold Series Interconnects Radio Shack 12 AWG Mega Cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 20, 2001 Share Posted July 20, 2001 My thinking exactly,bracevedo.That's the reason I bought my 4 KSP's and a sub for the center speaker.The SW12II then will be relagated to LFE only with my 3801. Oh yeah,got a 125X5 Acurus on the way for power.Can't wait to try her out!Listen large! Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 21, 2001 Share Posted July 21, 2001 right now i have a lil velo fsx-12" loaner sub & it sounds better w/ my klf-30 set to large. much more bass from the klf-30 & good quality w/ music. not the case w/ my hgs-18 though. the 18 is much stronger & on large the marantz ups the cut-off of the sub from 80hz to 100hz so i get too much overlap, cancelation & muddier bass. fronts:small drops the cut-off back to 80hz & takes away from the 30s & giviths to the 18 which can more than pick up the load. so looks like it depends on the equipment, room & the listener. nothing set in stone in audio. i'm tired. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z1 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacevedo Posted July 21, 2001 Share Posted July 21, 2001 Yep - I do think it depends on the sub you have. I have the KSW 12 - which I don't think is up to the task of reference level. It sounds great on music, and at lower listening levels in my HT, but crank it, and it can't keep up with the rest of the system. I can't wait to see what these new reference subs are capable of! Maybe if I get the RSW 12 I can finally set my speakers to small and let the sub handle all that glorious bass! ------------------ Thanks, Bryan "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi 60" RPTV (VS60603) Denon AVR 3801 RCVR Denon DVM 1800 DVD JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Klipsch RB5 - L&R Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall surrounds Klipsch KSW12 - Sub Monster Power Conditioner Radio Shack Gold Series Interconnects Radio Shack 12 AWG Mega Cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 21, 2001 Share Posted July 21, 2001 yea bac, i'd like to pick up a 2nd sub someday. like when i have a bigger room, k-horns for fronts & a 6.1-9.1 preamp or receiver either another hgs-18(prefered right now), an rsw-15, or an svs. guess(hope) this large/small thing is now settled. that is unless somebody knows of a good add-on bass mgmt. crossover box that solves that receiver fixed 80-100hz filter thang(?). would probably cost 'bout as much as a good a/v receiver though. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z1 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 21, 2001 Share Posted July 21, 2001 O.K., I am admittedly a fan of setting all SMALL and letting the subs to their thing while the "full-range" work on what they do best. But as Tom Vodhanel said in his reply on the "Legends meet SVS Ultra" thread, "With all speakers set to SMALL, the MINIMUM Dolby requirement for *reference* level bass is 121dB at all the key listening positions!" and, frankly, until very recently, I was unable to find a subwoofer configuration that could meet that criteria. The main problem with SMALL is that it is a TALL order for most subs alone or in combination to pump out that much clean bass under 90dB. If someone knows of more popular priced subs can make this steep grade, please, let me know. Thanks. HornEd PS: I can only hope for the next set of K-subs... ------------------ "Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT" FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, KLF 10 Front Effects BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects LARGE MOUTH BASS: Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweakin' On! Classic Cornwall 2-Channel Music Sanctuary Under Construction This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-22-2001 at 10:36 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 i guess the thang that bugs some people about setting large mains like the klf-30 to small & the subsequent cut-off of 80hz is that "like hey, coulda just got 2 more C7s for mains instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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