Large or Small ?What you need to know a MUST READ!!

[htxpert]

Hi all

I have been trying to explain proper bass management

to my client for years.I now have a link

that will explain this in great detail much better

than I can.Please read Brian Florian's reply

in the thread,print it frame it and hang it in your

HomeTheater

Here is the link

www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/003524.html

[badbob]

BRAVO! BRAVO! That's the explanation I've been looking for. In the article Brian made the statement

"So, rather than going through the expense and complexity of 5 + 1 subwoofers, simply get a really good, linear, honest subwoofer."

Would anyone care to de-code a "good, linear, honest subwoofer" into brand names?

THANKS!!

[PaulE]

Thanks for posting this.....I wanted to send you this link, from a guy who claims, quite in contradicition to yourself, that you should Never use the small settings!

http://www.hometheatersound.com/features/videonoise/vn_20010101.htm

After reading it, do you find Any validity in any of it? I have my doubts!

[htxpert]

Hi Paul

This is the exact artical that Brain is refering to

in the thread.There is another way to think of this

What do you need to make good LFE

#1 a good transducer that will move alot of air

and reproduce the lowest octaves without distortion

#2 Amplifire Power the more the better

#3 placement flexability to deal with room modes

Do you think your front mains would make a good

subwoofer? How bout when you are playing say...

the Matrix at near reference level with all channels

driven with your receiver or amp?

Would it not make more sense for the receiver or amp to

drive the 5 speakers while still having enough headroom to not introduce distortion and let the

active subwoofer do the hard work at the bottom end?

This is just one of the benefits obtained when you

run the configuration mentioned in Brians

setup.Try this,Select Large fronts,small center,small rear and Subwoofer yes.Play some material in the

45-75 hz range.Does the bass sound a little dry and

hollow? A little Less of it ? Now change all settings

to small and X over to 80Hz.put the subs Xover at

120hz or bypass Please post your listening results

here,

Thanks Ray

Cheers Ray

[Steve Phillips]

Haven't read the links yet but will.

This is how mine has been set since my K-Horns moved in(May 2000)

Fronts large,center sounds better large because the spl on the woofer is a few less than the tweeter and squawker.

Side surrounds are large because there is a powered sub feed from the side surround pre-outs.

This works for me and believe me I've tried it both ways with all types of material.My main subs are feed with the Denon 3801 80Hz out because the are powered by a seperate amp.

Acording to the Subwoofer Guide from Widescreen review,big mains that go down to 35Hz blend right with 80Hz setting on the sub.

Just my 2 cents.

[drewzter]

my big mains go down to 24...

lower than many "subs" on the market - that's why I haven't even bothered to get a separate sub yet.

as far as listening to a movie loud and not introducing distortion - not a problem yet...

The RxV990 is rated at .0125% THD and the speakers can take 250 watts RMS. I have sub setting set to none; main, center and surrounds set at large.

At 10:00 on the volume (0 is 6:00), the neighbors can pretty much hear the dialogue, and most definitely the bass, in their own living rooms.

After reading that thread, though, I might as well set the C7 and Polks as 'small,' huh?

------------------

Front: dbx Soundfield V - 15" woofer, 8" mid, ribbon tweet, 3.25" mid & dome tweet on top

Center: KLF C7

Rear Surround: Polk f/x bipole/dipole

Amp: Yamaha RX-V990 100x3; 25x2

DVD: Yamaha DVD S795 (built-in DD Processor)

CD: Yamaha CDC 575 5-Disc

VCR: Toshiba M752 6-head

TV: Mitsubishi 40" Tube

DirecTV

Sony Playstation w/ s-vid & RCA to V990 for awesome gaming picture & sound!

This message has been edited by drewzter on 07-06-2001 at 09:20 PM

[boa12]

ok here's the thang. i set my sub cross out and hook it up only by sub out line level y-adapter to both line ins. this way don't cut off any LFE and imo opinion the LFE and low bass from the sub (Velo HGS-18) is more loud, tight & dynamic than using speaker level connections (can't hook it up both line & speaker level per vel's instructions).

going by what i've read elsewhere, my marantz sr-8000 on the small setting starts cutting bass from the fronts and starts cutting highs from the sub at 80hz.

imo, this is too high for both the klf-30 and the velo hgs-18 in each respective direction, though i agree the fronts & sub sound better on 2 channel music this way than on fronts large setting.

that's because if i set fronts large they of course run

full range on low bass, but the highs on the sub then don't start getting cut til 100hz. on the large setting though the klf-30 really get back that 2nd octave(40-80hz) slam that the small setting cuts off.

however the overall bass quality gets lousy (muddy) because they're overlapping (from about 40-80hz) too much w/ the velo running full out to 80hz.

i mean it still sounds pretty good either way. better on 2 channel music w/ the fronts set small, but again that takes away some of that around 50-80hz klf-30 slam. but the real best solution would be if i could control (down from 80hz) the fronts cut-off point on the small setting, the large setting sub-cut off (down from 100hz), and/or my velo's crossover in/out switch, all w/ the remote control.

f.e. sony es receivers for one do allow u to adjust the small setting cut-off point in their bass management. that would be great for music in my case caus i'd then be able to set the cut-off down around 50-60hz.

i've always gone by the on paper rule that the crossover between mains & sub should be set somewhere around 10-15hz above the low extension of the main speakers. so in the case of the klf-30 around 50hz.

it seemed to blend the best w/ 2 channel music on the large setting for me there when i switched the crossover in. maybe 60hz for a lil more bass. but much more above that & it gets muddy & the sub becomes pretty distinct from the klf mains. but again leaving the sub crossover in then cuts off LFE (speced to 120hz) when i switch to a 5.1 source.

so imo the receiver makers are at fault for not making the bass mgmt flexable enough. they could correct it w/ a low cost tweak to their bass mgmt dsp - an adjustable small setting cut-off point.

the solution i've found is using the fronts & center small setting for 2 channel music in the 5 channel stereo mode, but switching to direct mode for 5.1 channel sources. but when the velo comes home from the shop i'll continue tweaking to see if i can get it to jive w/ the klf on 5 channel stereo w/ fronts large. just like that uninhibited 2nd octave bass from the klf-30

a lil more bass without getting too

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[Chris Robinson]

This is a VERY interesting thread. Sorry to be late to it ... I'm a little behind in my reading

You guys are far more knowledgeable and experienced on this subject, so I'd just like to ask flat out for your recommendations.

Based on my equipment configuration below, how should I set mine up? I think I'm hearing, based on this thread so far, that

(1) the Cornwalls, Belle and Heresys should all be set to "small" and

(2) the sub's crossover set to 80 hz.

Is this right?

I've also got a pair of Al's networks coming next week for the Cornwalls, and one for the Belle. Will this affect where I set the crossover?

Thanks for your input.

------------------

Denon AVR-4800

McIntosh MC-2105 (Fronts)

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Klipsch Cornwall I's (LF/RF)

Belle Klipsch (Center)

Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR)

Klipsch KSW-12 sub

[drewzter]

Discussions such as these which cover the complexities of having to deal with a separate sub and receiver/speaker crossovers, etc, are exactly what are leading me towards powered tower front mains, more specifically, the Def Tech BP3000TL with 1000-watt amps in each for their 18" built-in subs.

Let the electronics worry about all of the 'stuff,' and just let me hear what I want to hear out of the speakers - as long as it's accurate.

------------------

Front: dbx Soundfield V - 15" woofer, 8" mid, ribbon tweet, 3.25" mid & dome tweet on top

Center: KLF C7

Rear Surround: Polk f/x bipole/dipole

Amp: Yamaha RX-V990 100x3; 25x2

DVD: Yamaha DVD S795 (built-in DD Processor)

CD: Yamaha CDC 575 5-Disc

VCR: Toshiba M752 6-head

TV: Mitsubishi 40" Tube

DirecTV

Sony Playstation w/ s-vid & RCA to V990 for awesome gaming picture & sound!

[Steve Phillips]

Chris,

IMHO I'd try everthing large and at least the Cornwalls large.Try the Belle large.Let your hearing be the judge.I've used my Rat Shack spl meter with a test cd and my hearing and with even my old Forte I's set large,the bass had a flater response and it helped with some of the peaks.Mind you this just in my living room and works in my case.Large mains might or will cancel out the sub in some frequencies.Not completely,but just a few spl.

small w/sub large w/sub

20-74hz 74

30-83 82

40-90 83

50-83 76

60-78 78

Ok I know this is not using a spectrum analyzer,but........It's a close comparison.

drew,don't run the C-7 large,it only goes down to 70Hz anyway.

[Seb]

drewster, i'll have to disagree on this one.

deftech speakers might go low, but I don't think they'll match (both in sound quality and low-end extension) a good pair of Klipsch mains with a good sub, which would probably end up costing the same. unless you like the bipolar sound a lot.

i firmly believe it'smore complicated to deal with placement issues and stanbding waves problems due to two subs placed in the ideal speaker locations (which most of the time isn't the same as the ideal subwoofer or bass locations) than dealingwith the placement and proper xover of one sub. a thread is going on talking aboutjust those multiple sub-related problems.

besides, there is the same xover in the deftech as you'd have to have with a separate sub, except the deftech have them tuned by engineers in their rooms, where the acoustical conditions might be very different from yours. an adjustable xover is a good thing, not a bad one!

viva los subwooferos!!

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[htxpert]

Hi All

Please read the provided link

I totaly concur with Brians assesment

that if your mains sound better than your sub

its time to get a new subwoofer.

Also please keep in mind that subwoofer placement

is a must for high performance.

This is my personell Home Theater set up and its

configuration

KLF-30 front Small

RC-7 center Small

RF-7 sides Small

RB-5 rear EX,ES small

Onkyo TXDS 989 crossover set at 80 Hz

Classe Alpha Omega amps (pre out Onkyo for KLF-30)

2ea Genesis 928 subwoofers bypass x over,using

fixed X-over in receiver @80hz to prevent xover

phasing

1 ea VMPS Large Sub woofer (turned on only to impress

bassheads)

The Genesis 928 is in my opion the least acceptable

subwoofer for this configuration,and I plan on

upgrading them soon

[HornEd]

Htexpert... I truly enjoy your thought provoking posts... and in the main, concur with them. I noted you have both KLF 30's and RF-7's... how about sharing a "SMALL" share of your htexpert opinion in comparing them? All the lurkers and I say thanks for your support.HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-07-2001 at 01:02 PM

[htxpert]

Hi

the RF-7 for the sides was a typo

I meant to say RS-7 for sides

However I did receive the RF-7 and here is

my opion vs the KLF Legend line

keep in mind I have only had them set up for 3 days

The RF-7 is a better sounding speaker all the way around ! The first thing you notice is how deep the soundstage is,It acually makes the KLF-30 sound a little shallow in compairison.The second thing you notice is the almost complete lack of Hootieness

and the lack of the dreaded "S" simbalace when playing

female vocals.The third thing I noticed was the bass

was a little less tubby and more punchy.The RF-7 is

a little more laid back while still providing the

slam for Home Theater.I also think that the RF-7 is

a little harder to set up than the KLF-30,It is

more placement sensitive and likes a little more toe in.I also think that it has a narrower sweet spot

and has a smaller dispersion pattern.This is in my

opion a good thing,the pans across the front with the

RF-7's and RC-7 are more pronounced and less blurred.

The one thing that I did notice is the RF-7 requires more power to get them going,this indicates that they

may infact be a little less effient than there posted

spec.So bottom line are they better than the Legend?

I say yes.Is it worth it to upgrade from the Legend to

the new reference?That my friends is were you must decide,all of our ears are different and after 15 years of installations mine may not be the onees to rely on

[BLOOMIS914]

I guess this article is the cornerstone of philosophy for a company like M&K (Miller & Kriessel). They are famous for five matched satelittes and pretty decent subs.

Very informative response by Brian Florian, however, this assumes we all have access (read CASH) to SVS, Hsu Research, Velodyne Servo's, and other $1,000++ subs. I think my system sounds fantastic and I compare it with many local HT shops on a regular basis. Can it improve?? definitely. Where? in the Bass department. Right now I run two subs in my system a KSW-15 up front and a KSW-100 in the rear. I have my speakers set up as: Fronts=Large, Center=Small, Rears=Small, Sub=Yes

I have never even considered setting my KLF-30's to Small and feel terrible trying it...But I shall and I will post my results....

Can I assume that I could have bought five RB-5's and a INSERT YOUR FAVORITE SUB HERE and I would have a better, er, more accurate, flat sounding system???

My ego is shattered running my KLF-30's as small....

Just when I thought I had everything dialed in!!!

------------------

My main Klipsch system:

KLF-30's Bi-wired

KLF-C7

KSP-S6's

KSW-15 Front Sub

KSW-100 Rear Sub

Monster cable 14 gauge in-wall cable

Niles wall plates

Marantz SR-8000

Toshiba SD-4205 5 DVD changer

Pioneer PDF-1007 301-CD changer

Mitsubishi 35"

Mitsubishi VCR

Pioneer VSX-608 Multi-room amp for Outdoor deck

Polk All-weather AW2's deck speakers

Niles in-wall volume controls

Fridge full of beer and plenty of Don Julio, Jagermeister and Jim Beam

[Zargathos]

Here's my rule of thumb.

This, of course depends on your amplifier/receiver, and whether or not you can adjust your 'cut off or crossover' frequency (several are fixed at 80hz, my receiver is adjustable, but only down to 100hz )

If your speakers (especially front L/R) can handle the lower frequencies below your cut off, set the base management to those speakers to 'Large', otherwise set them to 'Small'. Then adjust your subwoofer crossover to blend in evenly with your front speakers.

For example, I have my RF-3's set to Large, and my RC-3 and RS-3's set to Small. The RF-3's can go down to about 37hz, according to the specs, so I consider them a 'full range' speaker, while the RC-3 and RS-3 can only go down to 60hz or so (not much below the crossover set on the receiver). I set my subwoofer's dial to about 60hz or so to blend evenly with the RF-3's bottom end of 37hz.)

In my receiver, for each speaker that is set to 'Small', the lower frequencys below the crossover is redirected to the fronts (if they are configured as Large), and/or the lower frequencies are sent to the subwoofer.

This, of course, is assuming that your subwoofer is connected via the RCA out jack from your receiver with a cable directly to the subwoofer, which mine is. Of course, you can connect the sub via speaker wire to the A Main speakers, and let the Subwoofer do the bass management, but then again, that's another page or two of typing, and I'm lazy today.

Does that make any sense? Of course, there's so many different receivers and each one handles the bass management differently.....and each speaker out there doesn't cover the full frequency range.

It would be a perfect world where all speakers could faithfully produce all tones from 15hz to 20,000hz. That would solve the bass management problem once and for all, I think.

------------------

RF-3 Mains

RC-3 Center

RS-3 Surrounds

Sony SAWM40 Subwoofer

Technics SA-DX1050 receiver

Panasonic DVD-RV31K DVD player

JVC 32" TV

Not too bad, I must say...

This message has been edited by Zargathos on 07-07-2001 at 10:26 PM

[boa12]

quote:

---

Originally posted by htxpert:

if your mains sound better than your sub

its time to get a new subwoofer.

---

though my sub definitely kicks the klf-30 from 15-40hz,

the klf-30 sound better in the 40-80hz range. why must we compromise w/ the 80hz cut-off of the klf to the sub?

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[paulaelliott]

quote:

---

Originally posted by htxpert:

How bout when you are playing say...

the Matrix at near reference level with all channels

driven with your receiver or amp?

Would it not make more sense for the receiver or amp to drive the 5 speakers while still having enough headroom to not introduce distortion and let the

active subwoofer do the hard work at the bottom end?

Cheers Ray

---

Ray,

I agree with you when it comes to movies...But, really, I'm speaking more about music...This is where I'm having trouble....Do you feel your comments apply equally to music? Some of my receiver's soundfields do send bass in varying degrees to the subs...I listen to alot of classical, and I prefer to have the subs just round out the bottom fullness of notes. I find that if I set the fronts to small, and receiver's crossover to above 80 hz, since the speakers spec is down to 52 hz (klipsh SB-3), why waste 30 hz of their useful range....True, a fair amount of bass in music goes to the sub if I do this, but the bass much above 80 is directional, and in stereo music, I want to hear it in stereo if possible...Setting the crossover to 60 would seem to be correct for the 52hz bottom freq response of the speaker, and would listen the chance of the sub bass being directional...Comments for music??

[htxpert]

Hi Paul

you made the statement

"I find that if I set the fronts to small, and receiver's crossover to above 80 hz, since the speakers spec is down to 52 hz (klipsh SB-3), why waste 30 hz of their useful range....True, a fair amount of bass in music goes to the sub if I do this, but the bass much above 80 is directional, and in stereo music, I want to hear it in stereo if possible...Setting the crossover to 60 would seem to be correct for the 52hz bottom freq response of the speaker, and would listen the chance of the sub bass being directional...Comments for music??"

Again I have to totally agree with Brian's assessment

That because you think your speakers are full range

setting them to small somehow wastes there ability

away and you are missing something.If your system

doesn't sound good in the 20hz to 120Hz range

and the bass is directional The problem you are having is with your subwoofer.

Does your receiver have a direct analog input for

multichannel ? If it does connect your L/R outputs of

your DVD Player or CD player to this connection.

This will Bypass all X-over points and send a fullrange signal directly to your L/R front mains.

Now play some music using the Multichannel input

Listen for awile and then switch over to your digital

input with you speakers configured to small using the

receivers x-overpoints.Does it sound the same from 50hz to 120hz?

if it does then your subwoofer is of high quality

blending in with your front mains while not "giving "

its location away in the 50hz to 120hz range

Music or Movie Tracks makes no difference

I absolutly know for a fact that my Subwoofers are

better bass reproduces than my KLF-30's from 20hz

to 90hz.It is my opion that unless your speakers are

full range (will play down to the lower 20hz) and you

dont want to use a subwoofer that the should be set to small.If your receiver has the Multichannel input

or direct bypass that allows you to bypass the crossovers then you can have it both ways

I hope I am making sense of all this.I posted the link

because I have a hard time explaining what I think

then translating them to words.Can anyone else

explain this is better term's ? Or do ya all

just think I'm wacked

Cheers Ray

[paulaelliott]

Ok Ray, its clear that when comparing my Analog Direct mode, when listening to music, which in the sony es receiver is strictly a 2 channel mode, to any one of the better digital soundfields, its the latter which provides more bass....Its also the latter which uses the Sub.

My fronts, SB3s are rated at 52 hz, not exactly 'full range'. So my question is where would you cross them over? My Es receiver will allow me to cross anywhere from 40 hz to 200 hz, in 10 hz increments. I thougtht that since the speakers rate to 52 hz, that crossing them over at 60 hz is the right thing to do....If I cross at 80, I definitely hear more bass coming from the sub...What I cant quite tell is am I hearing more bass overall crossing at 80 vs 60...Thats the question I need to answer, and the one I cant quite discern when listening. BTW, the sub is a sony SAWM40 12", 120W. I can low pass that from 50 hz to 170 hz...I find that setting lowpass at around 120 or even a little higher works best.

Given my SB3s and their freq response, please advise where you would cross them for best bass effect... thanks.