Large or Small ?What you need to know a MUST READ!!

[HornEd]

Not for my money, Boa, I've tried it. Also, doing below 90 Hz with enough clean, crisp "subpower" in one corner means less potential cancellation problems from multiple 12" woofers putting out competing waves. To my ear, a KLF 30 plays better when it doesn't have to handle the below 90 Hz material. I like the C-7 but it cannot compete with a KLF 30 from 90 Hz up... to my ear... that's why I replaced my C-7 with a KLF 30 as a center channel.

Coincidently, I was watching some upscale cable today and thought to myself, WOW, the whole system is performing so much better... even on cable! I know how hard it is to put a great full range-speaker on SMALL, but Boa I wish you could hear the difference it has made on my rig.

One thing I'm sure of from following this Forum, I have grown to respect you, Boa. And if you take two or three velo 18' HGS's, put them in a corner and set the rest of your speakers on SMALL tonight... you could even respect me in the morning. HornEd

PS: Of course your bass management scheme has to send LFE and all bass under 90 Hz to the subs.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-22-2001 at 11:16 PM

[boa12]

oh ed u know the respect is mutual! that was just a tongue-in-cheek extreme quip on my part. I totally agree it sounds better fronts:small on mine even with just 1 lil ole hgs-18. a 2nd hgs-18 would be great right now but don't have the room (to even stack 'em) so don't have to worry about shelling out another $2k.

but to get off the extreme, wouldn't klf-10 mains sound just about as good as klf-30s if they're all cut at 80 or 90HZ? i liked the klf-30s over the 20s & 10s for that 2nd octave slam (like that kick drum). not that a single hgs-18 can't pick up the cut-off bass.

just that i want it all

guess that's the world w/ standing waves. but still think that receiver adjustable filter on the small setting is the panacea.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z1 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[TVodhanel]

Right, as mentioned,

At *reference*,the LFE channel requires 115dBs of headroom at all the key seats in the room.

If you reroute all the bass from the other 5 channels to the subwoofer preout of the processor/receiver...then the requirements rise to 121dB. Technically...it's 121dB down to the lowest frequencies commonly found on DVDs...say 21-24hz for now.

However, I've found the vast majority of full range channel bass tends to roll off in by 30hz. So the argument could be made that you need 121dBs down to 32-35hz...and say 115-116dBs down to 21hz.

This is the type of detail that (understandably)bores most HT enthusiasts though...it's only after measuring thousands of *bassy scenes*...that this began to sink in on me(a little slow,yes )

Also worth commenting on...

IMO---if a system sounds BETTER with the speakers set to large, this indicates...

1)you're under woofed,

2)you haven't optimized the location/calibrations of the woof(s)

The primary advantages to using a dedicated woof or two for ALL the bass are twofold:

1)you can place the subwoofer to optimize response over the key listening seats. Since full range speakers need to be located to properly reproduce imaging/soundstaging and direction cues...they are pretyy much locked into a set position relative to the listener. Bass tends to be best reproduced near/in a corner however...as this will excite the maximum number of room modes possible(axial is most important)...leading to the flattest response signatures over a variety of seating locations.

2)corner loading also has the benefit of the most boundary reinforcement gain...so a given subwoofer will be able to produce the most clean bass if it's placed in/near a corner.

So it's not just a matter of what a speaker might be capable of...you could have a HGS18 as a stand for each main speaker...but this won't help the placement issue I spoke of.

And believe me, I know how counter-intuitive it seems to set *large* speakers to small. I've owned KLF30s for a few years(along with a C7/3.1s/1.1s to round everything out)...and have everything set to small/80hz.

TV

[boa12]

i think it's also a matter of which source format we're talkin about. my understanding is for 2 channel sources, like a music cd, the receivers' bass mgmt will send full range to the fronts set to large, AND also create a signal for the low bass & send that to the sub out/sub. in the case of my marantz, from what i've read at audioreview but can't really verify, it ups the sub out cut-off from 80hz to 100hz when u go from small to large. please correct if i'm wrong.

but this makes no sense for larger mains - you'd think that instead it would take it down to say 60hz to avoid mains-sub overlap. Here again it looks like this fixed setting is to the favor of smaller front speakers.

so for the large setting w/ a 2-channel source, the thang seems to be that you're getting the same low bass material simultaneously sent to the sub (up to 100hz w/ my marantz) & to the mains on down to their low range (36hz for the klf-30). obviously this could create the standing waves, cancelation &/or muddy bass problems. so for 2 channel material when u set fronts:small, you're not getting more low bass to your sub, you're just getting LESS sent to your mains. meaning less

overall bass QUANTITY.

however, i did a thread months ago when i got the new marantz sr8000 when i myself found that the bass QUALITY was better on 2-channel sources like music cd when fronts & center were set to small.

sooo, again, i'm all for setting fronts small given what we have to work with. my anti-establishment gripe (from the 60s) is that what we have to work with could be made better. maybe i'll give that crossover box a try tv.

i also mentioned in that thread that on 5.1 sources, the direct mode can be a godsend if the source mix is right for it - i.e., if it's mixed without a lot of channel overlap & the lfe channel gets most of that powerful lower bass. & i can do it w/ the push of one button on the remote & it bypasses all the bass mgmt, delay & tone controls.

& the direct mode also works for the 2-channel sources if i wanna listen to only the klf-30 slam out the music full-range (though I really prefer the 5 channel stereo -u know what I mean)

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z1 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-23-2001 at 05:04 PM

[bacevedo]

TV - I think that is what I have discovered - is that I am under-woofed! If my sub could put out deep bass, and the mid-bass at similiar levels - I think I would be ok. But since my sub has to be turned down so that it doesn't bottom out - the mid bass is also turned down. Since my bookshelf speakers are crossed over at 80Hz, I lose a lot of mid-bass.

For example, I will be watching a movie, and there is bass in the scene - but it is a little higher frequency bass. It sounds low in level compared to the rest of the sound. Then all of a sudden a low frequency bass sound will come in and sound nice and filling.

It could also just be the location of the sub in my room at those frequencies, but it is in the only location that I have to put it. You know that old WAF thing.

When I set my bookshelfs to large, they seemed to fill in that missing midrange bass, but rolled off naturally so that they didn't reproduce any of that low bass.

I really think a new sub would solve this problem, and unfortunately an SVS "tower" sub would not be accepted in my setup. So hence I am patiently waiting to see what the new Klipsch subs will be capable of.

Also, I don't think that the KSW subs match up very well with the reference series speakers. The reference series woofs are very fast and efficient, the KSW's just seem very low-tech in comparison. That is why I am hoping the RSW line, with the same type of woofs, will blend better.

------------------

Thanks,

Bryan

"... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater"

Mistubishi 60" RPTV (VS60603)

Denon AVR 3801 RCVR

Denon DVM 1800 DVD

JVC 3600U SVHS VCR

RCA DirecTV

Klipsch RB5 - L&R

Klipsch RC3 - Center

Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall surrounds

Klipsch KSW12 - Sub

Monster Power Conditioner

Radio Shack Gold Series Interconnects

Radio Shack 12 AWG Mega Cable

[boa12]

here's another guy besides me ranting on this bass mgmt. issue. though i think he means or should mean low bass in addition to LFE. just so you know i'm not the only one complaining about it:

http://www.audioholics.com/Industry/LFE.htm

[T2K]

Not really sure that would be classified as complaining,boa.More like,I believe,raising an "issue".

Keith

[TVodhanel]

That guy doesn't seem to have a clue.(link to the *rant*).

I made it through the first paragraph.

1)DD decoders do NOT lowpass the *LFE* channel. The LFE channel is usually allowed to pass full range to the subwoofers unless the USER configures the decoder's bass management to do otherwise. The one exception I can think of were some of the Yammy receivers. These DID introduce a non-defeatable 90hz LP on the LFE channel. Strange---but more or less a non issue performance wise anyway.

2)he's somehow implying that having a subwoofer LP at 80-90hz will inherently cause a standing wave at 60hz? huh?

3)he's also saying that if you have the mains set to large...you'll get cancellation with the subwoofer beacuse it's going to be operating in the same bandwidth as the mains. This is possible...but that's even more reason to USE the bass management feature and let the subwoofer handle everything below 80-90hz!

BTW---if you activate a 80hz HP for the mains(by setting them to SMALL)...this isn't the same as LP the LFE channel.

THe LFE channel should go to the subwoofer regardless. When you set the mains to SMALL, you're activating a 80hz LP filter for the MAIN L/R channels. This will tell the decoder to internally SUM the bass from the mains channels(starting at 80hz) to the FULL LFE signal...and then send it all to the subwoofer.

TV

[boa12]

yea tv like i mentioned i think he's making that mistake of using LFE & low bass interchangably. most a/v receivers do send a full range, uncut LFE signal to the sub out unless u choose the sub:no setting.

for well-mixed 5.1 source material, i tend to like the direct mode switch that bypasses the bass mgmt & sends full range to all channels & only LFE to the sub. keeps it seperated that way - iow, not mixing low bass from other channels w/ the LFE channel.

but that's just me. key words above are "well mixed"-

u're at the mercy of the mixers & whether they put the lowest, nondirectional bass in the LFE (where it belongs) or mix it into the other channels like the fronts.

btw, this isn't a large vs. small issue from me.

except for using the term LFE instead of "low bass", the guys got a point imo. this isn't whether setting fronts or others small is a bad idea. that is a good idea w/ most gear & source material.

it's about getting an adjustable crossover put into the receivers. maybe someday they'll all wake up. a 60hz

cross on the small setting i'm sure would work better than 80hz for my gear for all sources.

the emporer has no clothes.

tv, wouldn't adustability for a lil added cost be worth it over the fixed crossover at 80-90hz? or is there no real difference? seems to make an audible dif. when I use my sub's low pass.

please let the receiver makers know!

This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-25-2001 at 11:16 PM

[htxpert]

Hi All,

I am glad that Tom and ED have voiced there opion's

about the above subject manner,there explaination

is much more readable than any that I could provid

Cheers

[forresthump]

Yes Htex, Opinions is the key word. I agree more receivers should have that flexability to adjust the at least the frontschannels Filter point for the small setting.

You guys get so caught up in whose right & wrong you miss a pretty simple point IF WE COULD CONTROL THE BASS MANAGEMENT CROSSOVER IN THE RECEIVER THERE WOULD BE NO LARGE VS SMALL DEBATE

------------------

go forth & hump the world

This message has been edited by forresthump on 07-29-2001 at 02:19 PM

[Frzninvt]

It seems like the whole focus is sending more low frequency output to the dedicated LFE (SUB) channel, by setting all other speakers to SMALL allowing the sub to perform the majority of the frequency response below 80Hz +/- 12db. A strong point was mentioned, depending on the size of your mains and rears you could be sacrificing some important mid-bass output so that your system will now sound like "thunder and lightning". It is all user preference. I eliminate this dilemma by having total control of the subwoofer's crossover frequency, gain, and overall sub-harmonic level. By using the DBX 120X-DS Subharmonic Synthesiser/Electronic Crossover I can continuously vary the crossover point from 50-210hz, and manually select the desired output, I leave the sub volume on maximum. At the same time I can take a 55-110Hz bass signal and synthesize it a full octave lower and fine tune it at 28,34,40, & 50Hz with precise level controls on the face of the unit. Speakers are set to LARGE and the subwoofer is no longer controlled by the receiver. I have no trouble running it this way since I have enough power to support the most difficult transients with up to 400W available on 4 channels. The bass is tremendous, and can be easily adjusted. Fine tuning is accomplished with the assistance of the DBX 14/10 Eq which can RTA any spot in the living room in 45 seconds or less, and with 10 memories available you can do many seating positions or average them all together if you like. The SPL output when measured can easily reach the 14/10's max 119db. Although, just out of sheer curiousity I will give the SMALL thing a try. Thanks for the tip.

------------------

Sony KP-43T70 43" Television

Denon AVR 3300 A/V Receiver (LF/RF) (LWE-I's w/Motion Feedback - Walnut)

DBX BX-3MkII Power Amplifier (LF/RF) (Belle's - Oak Clear/Cane Grills)

DBX BX-3MkII Power Amplifier (RR/ARR/LR/ALR) (Heresy II's (Walnut/Cane) & ESS Mini Monitors (Walnut))

DBX MPA-150 Mono Split Spectrum Amplifier © (KV-4 - Black)

Klipsch KSW-15 Powered Subwoofer (2)

Nakamichi DVD-10 DVD/LCD/CD Player

Nakamichi MB-10 Music Bank CD Changer

Technics SL-DL5 DDLinear Tracking Turntable

JVC HR-S7500U SVHS Video Cassette Recorder

RCA DRD-303RA Satellite Receiver

VC3 Deluxe Video Clarifier

DBX 400XG Program Route Selector

DBX 120X-DS Subharmonic Synthesizer/Crossover

DBX 3BX-DS 3-Band Dynamic Range Controller (2) (1-LC) (1-RC)

DBX 14/10 14-Band Computerized Equalizer/RTA Analyzer/SPL Meter

Panamax 1000+ Surge Protector/Line Conditioner

Sega Dreamcast w/3 Controllers & VMU's/S-Video Output

Bedroom

Yamaha RX-900U Receiver

Panasonic DVD-A120U DVD/CD Player

Sony SLV-740HF Hi-Fi VCR

BBE - ARS Audio Recovery System

A/D/S L300E Mini Speakers

GE 20" Television

[boa12]

frz, why give small a try? sounds like u have an exception to the small rule to me, as do powered towers connected speaker level.

i've been interested in finding something like u have there. is it still on the market? what kinda speaker/sub connections does it support?

thanks much for the info!

[Frzninvt]

Sorry Boa, DBX Consumer group went out of business back in 1990. They are available on eBay and Yahoo occasionally and they are in demand. Be sure to get the 120X-DS "Digital Series" version for the most flexibility. You can do many things with it, use it for bi-amping and route the frequencies that you select from 55-210Hz to the sub and the rest to your mains, or use it as a sub crossover, or use it as a subharmonic synthesizer to restore content that was lost in the recording/remastering process. Or do both at once. You can control it all from the front of the unit, and it has level indicator LED rows for 28,34,40 & 50Hz with fine tune knobs at the base of them. I think Cruzer uses one on his set-up.

------------------

Sony KP-43T70 43" Television

Denon AVR 3300 A/V Receiver (LF/RF) (LWE-I's w/Motion Feedback - Walnut)

DBX BX-3MkII Power Amplifier (LF/RF) (Belle's - Oak Clear/Cane Grills)

DBX BX-3MkII Power Amplifier (RR/ARR/LR/ALR) (Heresy II's (Walnut/Cane) & ESS Mini Monitors (Walnut))

DBX MPA-150 Mono Split Spectrum Amplifier © (KV-4 - Black)

Klipsch KSW-15 Powered Subwoofer (2)

Nakamichi DVD-10 DVD/LCD/CD Player

Nakamichi MB-10 Music Bank CD Changer

Technics SL-DL5 DDLinear Tracking Turntable

JVC HR-S7500U SVHS Video Cassette Recorder

RCA DRD-303RA Satellite Receiver

VC3 Deluxe Video Clarifier

DBX 400XG Program Route Selector

DBX 120X-DS Subharmonic Synthesizer/Crossover

DBX 3BX-DS 3-Band Dynamic Range Controller (2) (1-LC) (1-RC)

DBX 14/10 14-Band Computerized Equalizer/RTA Analyzer/SPL Meter

Panamax 1000+ Surge Protector/Line Conditioner

Sega Dreamcast w/3 Controllers & VMU's/S-Video Output

Bedroom

Yamaha RX-900U Receiver

Panasonic DVD-A120U DVD/CD Player

Sony SLV-740HF Hi-Fi VCR

BBE - ARS Audio Recovery System

A/D/S L300E Mini Speakers

GE 20" Television

[boa12]

thanks agaun frz! yea was having a lil trouble finding

there w/ a net search appears in a lot of recording studio gear lists.

how does it connect to your equipment? will it then connect directly line level to the sub?

[Frzninvt]

boa, you've got mail - I PM'd you with the details. Email me directly for photos if you like.

[boa12]

frz, thanks for the great info & pics.

still trying to figure out how one could hook it up & use it w/ a marantz sr8000. it has no tape monitor jacks/function that i can find.

i know i can hook it up to the fronts preouts, set fronts large & hook the sub directly to it w/ the 2 line level rca jacks.

but i've never used any of the 6 direct inputs on any a/v receiver. that seems to be the only option - run the dbx outs into the fronts inputs on the marantz.

wonder if that would work & the receiver then functions

w/ everything as before.

guess then it would be best to set the center & rears to small so their low bass goes to the front channels to be processed by the dbx. would also like to control

the crossover on the rear cornwalls, but hey i could live w/ it.

[boa12]

think i answered my own ? w/ hookup. for the marantz direct inputs i can select either 6 channel or 2.

guess then i'd run the dbx outputs into the 2 fronts direct inputs & select 2 channel. the 3 other channels would i guess run as normal from within the receiver.

or is this backwords? ie, the direct inputs go to the preamp & then the preouts. if that's the case can't see how the dbx could get it's front channels output back into the receiver.

how does it all actually work within the receiver? anybody know how these direct inputs work &/or how to hook these boxes into the a/v receivers w/ no tape monitor?

This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-30-2001 at 03:14 PM

[eq_shadimar]

All this is very interesting as I am just going through this mess myself. The article posted and all you guys here have been very helpful. This is what I finally ended up doing.

I am definatly under woofed (that should be fixed via an SVS woofer and good ole Uncle Sam here shortly) but I ended up setting all my speakers to small and seting the AVR crossover at 80Hz and LFE only.

This sounded great for movies but not so hot for music (again el'cheapo "bass module" not a true sub). The HK 510 will let me store different settings for different inputs so on my CD input I have the front speakers set to large and a cross over of 40Hz with Mains+LFE so the sub is active in 2 channel mode. In all cases the filter on the sub is set full open. Hopefully when the SVS arrives it will solve all these issues and I will finally get to anoy my neighbors.

The HK 510 will let you choose a crossover 40 or 60 with fronts set to large and 80 or 100 with the fronts set to small. This is in addition to all the normal sub yes/no, LFE or LFE+Main selections. So it seems more flexible (maybe) than some of the other AVR's mentioned here

------------------

HT -

RF-3's

RC-3

RS-3's (white)

Advent Powered Sub

Harman Kardon AVR 510

PC -

ProMedia 4.1

Bedroom -

KG4's

Harman Kardon AVR 20 MKII

[boa12]

yes eq u do have that rare flexability. congrats hopefully more avr like marantz catch on in the future. then maybe i can trade it w/ full credit toward the new 1 by arguing a design flaw