Piano Recordings

[vinylfreak]

It might be just my system, but why do piano recordings always sound horrible? They are recorded too quietly, lack detail and, if you turn it up louder, a great deal of distortion could be heard. There's others thing, too.

[Strabo]

Filling in your system profile might help people understand what is going on.

That aside, the piano is the hardest instrument to record and playback properly. And the way the piano sounds played on my Forte's is what got me to buy klipsch in the first place.

What recordings are you referring to? Maybe someone else here has the same recordings and can help comment on them individually.

[vinylfreak]

I was referring to just generic classical recordings from CD, like some Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin. I can't really be more specific right now, the thought just crossed my mind that piano recordings tended to sound bad. I too am using Klipsch Fortes (with an old twin powered H/K) but have heard these on Khorns too. Other music sounds wonderful, and the piano sounds decent too... just not as good as I'd like.

[leok]

Interesting .. I always liked piano via my old Forte-IIs and still often prefer piano through the Chorus-IIs. The mid horn (same in both speakers) carries the piano dynamics so well. Your amp seems fine. Based on equipment alone, I would have thought you have a very piano-friendly setup.

Leo

[vinylfreak]

Do you have any good recordings that you recommend?

[ChrisK]

Always been one of my pet peeves too. While I'm not a piano player, my kids are and we have a 60" Kawaii Professional in the living room. I love the sound that comes out of that beast. Very few recordings I have (vinyl, sacd or cd) even come close. My hero...er uh...friend, Dr Bruce Edgar, pretty much told me the same thing written in the post above after I'd asked him, more or less, the same question you pose. Dr. B said piano sound is very difficult to record properly because of it's extremely percussive nature among other things. Not to mention the Jazz Sensei (Allan Songer) once remarked that even the great Rudy Van Gelder (of Blue Note records fame) had a hard time recording piano accurately.

Maybe Joshnich will chime in on this one. He has a piano with a deck the size of an aircraft carrier in his living room, and plays it beautifully. I believe it's a German made Schmeckle, Schmeister or something like that.

Chris

[Colin]

Piano sounds horrible, newbie, on ole Klipsch horns, with sweet vintage, solid-state, harmon/kardon receiver! Maybe it is time for larger horns, or more solid-state sub-woofer support

what is your source, room, etc?

[bdc]

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On 6/3/2004 7:16:33 PM Colin wrote:

Piano sounds horrible, newbie, on ole Klipsch horns, with sweet vintage, solid-state, harmon/kardon receiver! Maybe it is time for larger horns, or more solid-state sub-woofer support

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uh... what? I'd better get rid of all my stuff then!! Know of any Bose dealers around Sac, CA?

[Parrot]

Try something by Ivo Pogorelich or Krystian Zimerman. They are brilliant pianists.

I'd disagree with you completely that piano recordings always sound horrible. It's true they are a challenge to record but a good recording played back on a Klipschorn sounds extremely lifelike. That was one of Paul Klipsch's favorite demos, to see if guests could tell if it was a recording of a piano being played in the other room, or whether it was his wife playing the piano.

[vinylfreak]

My source is an old CD player from 1985. My room is definitely not ideal for audio either. I understand that better placement and source will help dramatically, but other types of music does sound pretty good (acoustic guitar, for example). And I will admit that I've only heard a small amount of piano recordings, mostly on old classical CDs.

[ssh]

Vinylfreak,

Does your username refer to LPs?

Your source, amplification, & speaker combo will show its' weakest link more quickly with piano selections. (What Colin asks, etc.)It is difficult to reproduce the familliarity we know from the piano. As you listen to better sounding systems, the distinction (between well-not well reproduced) becomes greater with a wider range of instruments. Piano is one of the first we notice.

Paul recommends some probably spine-chilling recordings (Thank you, Paul, for those now necessary expenditures.), which may also sound artificial on a system that doesn't play the piano well. Of course, the disc is the least expensive possible upgrade, so give it a go.

It seems to me that you are more discriminating than your current system. Most of us are. Some of us have found a great combination for things like "real" piano sound. As Paul suggests, piano does not always sound like what you describe. I suggest that, if you want "real" piano sound, you have some gear-listening to do.

SSH

[lynnm]

Assuming your handle means that you are an analogue enthusiast I recommend a listen to:

Legendary Masters of the Piano ( The Classics Record Library SWV 6633 )

If you cannot find a copy of this set PM me as I have an extra.

It is a very long story ( a Google search will yield a tremendous store of information)---- but here it is in a nutshell:

A German engineer and music lover named Edwin Welte esentially perfected the Vorsetzer ( ie. sits in front of )recording/playback piano ca. 1905 < his device was not the first but was the best by any measure> and was able to persuade many of the greatest pianists and composers for the piano in the early days of the 20th Century to make rolls using his device.

In 1966 a restored Welte vorsetzer was paired up with the Steinway Concert Grand normally reserved for the use of Artur Rubenstein on his West Coast concert apparances ( Steinway Concert Grand # 261 ).

Welte rolls recorded by the following artists were reproduced and recorded using modern equipment.The earliest rolls were recorded ca. 1905 and the latest in 1913.In some cases the artists play their own compositions and in other cases play compositions created by their personal favourites:

Josef Hofmann

Teresa Carreno

Xaver Scharwenka

Alfred Grunfeld

Vladimir De Pachmann

Josef Lhevinne

Claude Debussey

Maurice Ravel

Camille Saint-Saens

Gabriel Faure

Edvard Grieg

Alexander Scriabin

Enrique Granados

Gustav Mahler

Richard Strauss

Ossip Gabrilowitsch

Eugen D'Albert

Theodor Leschetizky

Ignace Jan Paderewski

Ferruccio Busoni

Your eyes do not decieve you BTW ! These really are recordings of Debussey,Ravel,Grieg,Strauss,Saint-Saens,Mahler,Paderewski,Scriabin etc. actually playing the piano.

This is not a FOR SALE ad but if someone wants my extra copy we can talk.

In any event if I can assure you that If this recording sounds bad on your system then it is not a problem with piano recordings but with your system. My best guess is that there is a problem with your stylus or perhaps with your tonearm setup.

Perhaps you could elaborate on the sonic issues you have with piano recordings ? We may be able to help.

[lynnm]

I reread your post and you mention that you are using a very early CD player. That may well be a major part of your problem. Beg/Borrow/Steal a good quality CD player of recent vintage and you WILL hear a major improvement.

[boomac]

On 6/3/2004 6:47:38 PM leok wrote:

Interesting .. I always liked piano via my old Forte-IIs and still often prefer piano through the Chorus-IIs. The mid horn (same in both speakers) carries the piano dynamics so well. Your amp seems fine. Based on equipment alone, I would have thought you have a very piano-friendly setup.

Leo

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I agree with Leo.

[maxg]

Pianos are tricky suckers. They seem to make the largest demands on a playback system of any instrument. Further, they demand real attention in the recording process. I dont think it matters a damn if your system is the best in the world - if the material isnt there on the medium.

Sadly, on CD's the last thing anyone seems to think about, in the mainstream, is the quality of the resulting recording. The mass market seems to aim at loud. Producers vie to make their recordings louder than the competition and squeeze the dynamic range as a result. This murders the reproduction of piano.

In vinyl things are a little better (despite the disparity in dynamic range of vinyl and CD), but again you have to know what to buy.

I am at the office now so I cant see my CD collection. I have a number of piano concertos, some good, some bad which I will attempt to go through at the weekend.

Of course if you wanted vinyl I could do that now....

[leok]

Brahms Piano Concerto #2

Bernard Haitink/Emanual Ax

(also has Yo-Yo Ma and Ax doing a Cello Sonata)

Sony SK 63229

Brahms Piano Sonata #3 and Variations & Fugue on Theme by Handel

Anton Kuerti

ProPiano PPR224512

They are among the best piano recordings (of a modern piano) I have heard. If they don't work, there is definately a system problem

Leo

[Erik Mandaville]

Leo:

Thanks very much for this information! I have written down these titles, and will look for them along with some Barber recordings mentioned recently.

Erik

[Daddy Dee]

Not being a technical person, I don't know why it is so difficult to record piano well, but to my ears, it is true. Other sound reproducers are more forgiving than Klipsch which will reveal the imperfections of the source and anything else upstream from there.

I've been listening to piano solos for years, in the morning with coffee and quiet. Mostly Liz Story, but some G Winston, too.

Turned out it was a Liz Story CD which turned out to be my reference CD for testing a system. There was one particular passage which sounded distorted on EVERY system I played it on. In the process of changing out gear, working to improve the system over a period of months, finally got an AH! Njoe Tjoebs CD player and wow, played that passage over and over hearing it clear and sweet.

So this thing about piano being challenging to record seems to be true, also challenging to reproduce. I understand the second part. It is a continuing pet peeve that any recording for commercial distribution should go out the door without being right. I suppose those folks face the pressure of a deadline and the assumption that the vast majority of consumers will not have the gear to hear the flaws anyway.

[Colin]

I meant I was shocked. The wide frequency response and dynamic of the piano is one of the acoustic instruments that show off big ole horns to their best. An old CD and recordings certainly could be annoying. See if California Audio still sells their cheap DAC, that will improve the sound, so will a vibration isolation platform.

[Parrot]

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On 6/4/2004 3:05:58 AM maxg wrote:

Sadly, on CD's the last thing anyone seems to think about, in the mainstream, is the quality of the resulting recording. The mass market seems to aim at loud. Producers vie to make their recordings louder than the competition and squeeze the dynamic range as a result. This murders the reproduction of piano.

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Not the case with Vinylfreak, though. He complains of piano being recorded too quietly. Seems like what Vinylfreak is reacting to is a recording with *proper* dynamic range. If it happens to have just a little portion that is really loud, the forte of the pianoforte, and the majority is fairly subdued, he could easily consider the recording as being made too quietly, when in actuality it just has not had its dynamics squashed.