kenratboy Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 ---------------- On 7/13/2004 1:01:35 AM TBrennan wrote: troost----If your cat was big enough it would kill you and eat you. ---------------- My cat has tired on numerous occasions He is just so cute, and he is small (but has VERY sharp claws), so we just laught at him. I have no doubt my cat would eat me if he could Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Pig---There's nothing wrong with plastic horns; plastic is a suitable material for horns and works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 any dealer who has sold the heritage speakers will tell you that the build quality on the refs (even the ref7) isnt up to par to old klipsch standards.... plastic horns included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 ---------------- On 7/13/2004 1:22:44 AM kenratboy wrote: My cat has tired on numerous occasions He is just so cute, and he is small (but has VERY sharp claws), so we just laught at him. I have no doubt my cat would eat me if he could ---------------- If you have ANY doubts that your house cat is kept in line by your superior size and power, watch "The Incredible Shrinking Man" sometime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Hello Again: I can agree that plastic can be a suitable material. I can agree that Paradigm has one (1) Reference Line. I own some Paradigms. I cannot agree with the CONSUMER having to repair things mentioned by more than one (1) CONSUMER on speakers the ARE supposed to be the top of the line - barring Heritage. I've gone into dealers (not in my hometown) in which I have seen the broken plastic pegs. I've experienced trying to buy the black grille cloth on Heritage, told it was not available, called Hope and have been given the part number and have been quoted a price eight (8) times higher in six (6) years. What I have not seen personally - it may have been Posted when I did not have access to a computer, webtv, etc. - is any comment made by a Klipsch Representative for a recall, a repair kit offered or notation or apology to those who can PROVE they have speakers with broken pegs or other problems or questions associated with the Reference Line. I have tried to Post a balance /middle of the road in hopes of supporting both sides. Also in the hope of a response from someone at Klipsch. If there has been one, I apologize. If there has not been one, maybe a Post that the "problem" is being looked into OR PM a Rep for repair possibility. OR maybe we have developed a repair/retrofit and will handle, again, those that can PROVE they have a problem. How long have we been reading about pegs breaking, dents in speakers, etc.? For plastic tensile strength, try ripping open a bag of frozen peas, or look at plastic holders for automobile door inserts. On my truck (Toyota) I have had to use a screwdriver to pop them off to add sound barriers, pop them back in, and pop them out again to lubricate them mechanism, then pop them back in, then pop out when I added carpet panels - glued on and pop back in. On a 1985 Truck - usually not garaged. Maybe this will get me banned, but anyone from Klipsch have anything to say? This thread deserves an answer by someone other than Klipsch Speaker owners, Reference or Synergy Line or "references" to the Heritage line. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 pig---When I wanna learn about hi-fi a dealer is about the last person I listen to. If the RFs are inferior, if, it's not because the horns are plastic instead of, well instead of what? I'll tell ya what pal, I've used lots of horns over the years and some of the better sounding ones I've used were plastic. Other good ones were wood, aluminum and the best I ever used were sheet metal and tar. The material the horn is made of is way down on the list of what makes a good horn. Design and execution of the design, that's the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Hey, I just had a thought! Whatif I got some nice looking flat black decals that say "reference" in gold letters on them to stick on anything you want? Any takers? Heck, I'm gonna put 'em on my stereo gear, too. Better than that old THX logo, huh?! I know... I'm an ***. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 ---------------- On 7/13/2004 3:05:20 PM TBrennan wrote: pig---When I wanna learn about hi-fi a dealer is about the last person I listen to. If the RFs are inferior, if, it's not because the horns are plastic instead of, well instead of what? I'll tell ya what pal, I've used lots of horns over the years and some of the better sounding ones I've used were plastic. Other good ones were wood, aluminum and the best I ever used were sheet metal and tar. The material the horn is made of is way down on the list of what makes a good horn. Design and execution of the design, that's the key. ---------------- Being a technical nerdy type guy who's learning the science of audio these days, I'd have to agree: the horn curve and construction of the driver etc are far more important. The Synergy is inferior to the Reference, which is inferior to the Legend, which is inferior to the Heritage. "Lower end" products are a fact of life for almost any company that wants to have a big R&D budget and stay alive. Even people like BMW who have tranditionally sold ONLY premium stuff are venturing into the lower price points. People aren't tripping over each other to buy Klipschorns but Klipsch still wants to do R&D and keep the lights on, so there are products positiioned at the mass-market. The fact that a company has higher end and lower end usually ends up benefitting the lower end: the technology developed for flagship products trickles down to mass market items. The rest of the argument seems to be a most trite re-hashing of mostly unimportant semantics. Just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 ---------------- On 7/8/2004 6:54:47 AM fini wrote: ---------------- On 7/2/2004 3:08:17 PM Stephen Phillips wrote: Our Synergy line is designed for customers who desire excellent performance at a value price. Our Reference products make up our premium line, designed and engineered with the most expensive materials for consumers that demand the utmost performance, and are willing to pay a slight premium to achieve that additional performance. Klipsch offers a product line for most, if not all bugets. ---------------- Steve, As you may know, I own KSP-400's (Synergy Premier). At over $2500/ pair retail, it surely doesn't fit the "value" tag of the Synergy line. I see the KSP's as a precursor to the Reference line, both in quality of build and performance. How do you, and how does Klipsch see its place in K history, build quality, materials, etc.? ---------------- Fini, sorry for the delay. The KSP-300 and 400 along with the matching centers and surrounds were called the Synergy Premier because they were both powered towers and were the "high" end of the Synergy Series. They set the stage for the Reference Series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 tb - i completely agree that the material of the horn is not exactly what makes it sound good - i just used it as an example of cutting material costs and yet still call it reference (the best they can make). the heritage used non-plastic horns - and those were excellent. the front baffles of almost all the klipsch reference are made of plastic.. a veteran klipschster poster once complained of the shoddy workmanship on the rb-15 when the bookshelf fell onto the ground and exposed the poor construction inside. i say, u shouldnt label something "Reference" UNLESS it is the absolute epitome of your knowhow and materials in building a speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 ---------------- On 7/13/2004 3:22:43 PM damonrpayne wrote: The Synergy is inferior to the Reference, which is inferior to the Legend, which is inferior to the Heritage. ---------------- I sure as hell don't think the Reference is inferior to the Legend, and in fact, I think it is the other way around. I've listened to some of the Legend series and I personally did not like them, but that is my opinion. In response generally, not to just damonpyne. I can certainly agree that the K-horns are a better speaker than the RF-7s. If I was to upgrade, that is the only route I would take. I've not heard anything else in any of the Klipsch lines that I liked better than the RF-7s, including the Legend series and including some of the "lower-end" Heritage, such as the Heresy's. The Cornwall is about the closest to come in my opinion to the type of sound I want besides the RF-7s or even the K-horns, but not enough to justify me the hassle of "changing speakers", unless I come across a pair at an extemely good deal (like that one pair that showed up in Richmond about a year or so ago, but somebody beat me to them). Unfortunatly, as good as the K-horns may be, they are not going to do me one bit of good, since I have no place to put them. Until I come up with a solution that does not require me to change addresses, I am going to stick with my RF-7s. Yes, the broken pegs are annoying and I wish there was a retro-fit kit available to change them to the newer magnetic version ala the RF-35's. That is the "only" gripe that I had as far as build quality goes. Beyond that, I think they are a good quality speaker that sounds damn fine. Now, as to the name "reference", well, a rose by any other name is still a rose. Call it what you will, but I am certainly happyy with mine and I have no desire to trade them out anytime soon. That is all I am saying about this topic. I am happy with what I got, regardless of what opinions may be about the RF-7s and solid-state amplification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Pig----I understand you now and agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 pinipig- J4knee broke a woofer frame, when the speaker dropped off the couch, onto the floor. An unfortunate accident, but this does not mean that they are " inferior ". The plastic baskets are inexpensive to manufacture, with the price of aluminum and magnesium up so high. They could use stamped steel, like many other speakers, but plastic and aluminum are non-magnetic, therefore they do not reduce the strength of the magnetic field. Plastic grille pins broken? They can be welded back on, or alternatively repaired with a structural adhesive designed for thermoset and thermoplastics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Hello: Maybe an idea would be to note the Heritage line and keep that. As for the rest, use only the letter and numeric "name." Drop the use of the Synergy, Synergy Premier and Reference words. Then expectations and "class division" would be eliminated. As Fini notes $2500.00 for his speakers. I may be wrong, but I think I believe that to be higher than the RF-7s. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 ur right dodger, they should drop the names... why? because they no longer mean anything. the reference series are so cramped with so many speaker lineups that one feels the WHOLE lineup cant be "reference", so might as well get rid of the name reference. whoa.. i almost confused myself there. well, basically i still stand by what i said earlier (thanks for agreeing tb)... reference for klipsch (or any speaker company) should be the BEST they can offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc1091 Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Sorry for the delay in getting back to the forum. Work, holidays, various other responsibilites co-opting my time. I wasn't able to read through all the responses here, I apologize. It seems that some understood exactly what I was saying, and a few did not. No, I did not intend to say that Reference and Synergy speakers (at least for the most part) are sounding more and more alike, yet it does seem that Klipsch is bent on adding speakers to the Reference line that may be better suited for addition elsewhere. Those who say that Reference is or has become an overused word are more to my point. I'm sure there are examples throughout the industry, but I am focusing on Klipsch. As the title of the thread says, "When Reference no longer means Reference". Yes, I am accusing Klipsch of adding models to their *Reference* line that in my opinion should actually be placed in a line of their own. Their appearance here only serves to dilute the overall audio expectation of the Reference line. Maybe they are telling me that I never should have expected a *Reference* in their Reference Line. Maybe they are telling me that as a consumer I was naive to believe that Klipsch would want to produce a quality modern speaker that they could point to and say, "This is our Reference." Yes it seems it is true, Reference is just a marketing ploy used to goad on the consumer to spend a little extra to buy Klipsch named speakers in that special "Reference" line. Even those speakers that do not live up to the sound type that made Klipsch a legend. Fortunatly we still have the original Heritage line, untouched except for the often missed Cornwall. Yet even *authorized* Klipsch dealers rarely have Heritage models to audition. When did the Heritage line fade into audio store history? Was it with the introduction of the Synergy Line? The Reference Line? The Legend Line? The KG series? I see the dilution of the Reference line as just another symptom of what took the Heritage line from store showrooms. Perhaps soon we will be looking high and low for anything of the quality and size of an RF-7. Maybe soon, the best we can hope to audition in our local stores is a hundred models of Reference speakers that sound little better than your average Bose. I would hope for a better standard from the legend that is Klipsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc1091 Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Inferior materials? Maybe inferior looking materials. One of my Heresy speakers survived a 5 foot drop early in its life. Yeah, there's still the crushed edge of the wood cabinet, but the drivers never suffered. All are secure and straight as when they were originally mounted. I agree, about the sound of the Legends vs the Reference RF7, 5 and 3 or the RP5 or RP3. Reference sounds cleaner than Legends IMHO. About Reference vs non-Klipschorn Heritage speakers, well, The Reference have a more tonal extended bass, and the Reference have better point source characteristics, but even the Heresy will just overwhelm the Reference in that "make yer body feel like your in a rock concert" category. I even like them better for listening to the symphony from the vantage point of the "director's chair" rather than from "somewhere back toward the back of the auditorium"...if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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