sunnysal Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 hope this is legible...a few notes: 1. active crossover will be using linkwitz riley 48db/octave to minimize phase problems between drivers. 2. I am not sure of the klipschorn bass bin sensitivity rating, the others are taken from the respective manufacturers and include compression driver + horn. I used the K-33E stated sensitivity but if anyone knows the correct K-33E + basshorn reading please give it to me. 3. delays are approximate and were sourced from richard heyser´s measurements in 1989. 4. alternate mid-horn is Fostex H200 and alternate mid-drivers are BMS H4591 and JBL 2485J. 5. top hat is based on q-mans and john warren´s superklipschorn project, check them out at http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/Page_5.html 6. exact crossover points are yet to be determined, I may extend the altec mid horn up to 6KHz before passing to JBL tweeter and I may extend the klipsch bass bin up to 500Hz before passing to Altec mid. listenting tessts will determine final points (comments welcome!) any feedback would be greatly appreciated, tony edit: diagram corrected for sensitivity and impedance too : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Tony, I did not change my crossover, only the throat cavity opening to allow for more extended upper frequency band pass though the bass horn with the K33E, but if you don't change the cavity opening size, you will not be able to get much more though it, as it acts as a physical filter regardless to a certain degree of the crossover upper fc (more than less, that is). So using a different upper frequency cutoff on the crossover is not enough by itself, IMO. If you want to get an extended output i.e., upto 500Hz from the bass bin, you will have to use a 6x13 inch throat cavity opening in the Khorn bass horn. The horn throat proper is already that size, just the cavity opening is smaller for acting as a acoustic high pass filter. The trade off is that the bass gets "looser", but the mid and upper bass "opens up" the transparency quite a bit. It is quite pleasant and amazing on the soundstaging, but again the "tightness" is reduced to a degree. It's a different effect, which I found to be quite pleasing. It also opens up a whole lot of different horns that have an fc of 500Hz. Give it a shot. My horn is cut for a 6x13 opening and I use the motor board to provide the 3x13 typical for Khorns. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Tony, Thanks, you have cost me $150 for a couple of 2404H's on ebay. between Sfogg, John and you as the final straw I had to find out what the fuss was! I have one on top already much clearer and extended than K-77 but sounds "louder" even though just 1db more effecient. When the other one comes I'll know more. To answer your question above, the bass bin is 104db at 1 watt, 1 meter. PWK selected the tweeter to match that spec and used the autoformer to lower the output of the Atlas PV-5, K-55 to match. Looks like you have moved the 2404 even further forward than stock to match the curve of the 311 horn. That may add a tick or two to the delay. Good luck!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 26, 2004 Author Share Posted July 26, 2004 rick, "sorry" about the 2404 tip, lol. I guess you can pad the tweeter a bit to integrate it with the rest...are you going to swap mid horn/driver too? thanks for the info about the bass bin sensitivity, I will be finalzing delay times once I get everything installed. keep me updated about your project. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Tony, Have you thought about biamping and building a passive crossover for the mid/high? It seems more reasonable to use that JFL amp for 350hz and up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 yes guy I HAVE thought if that, it is still a possibility, since I will be going step by step...HOWEVER I am tempted by the idea of adding delay to correct the time alignment problems in the klipschorn. I will first install the drivers and horns and try them with the ALK (which has level control for the mid horn) and I may have to add a pad for the tweeter. If I still have the itch I will go for the active crossover. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Tony, I don't know if you'll really need to do anything about the tweeters using ALKs. I remember Al suggesting that those JBLs can be used without any mods to his crossovers....and I admit that I do not find them too loud...but of course every person listens differently . Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Rick brings up a good point (as always), and after thinking about it, I thought of a couple of thins. It may be just the "new" dispersion characteristics of the JBL is the change you are noticing as 1 db of difference is supposedly not detectable by the human ear. Another possible thing is that the reactance characteristics of the JBL's are slightly different and that "upsets" the crossover to a degree and changes the actual upper frequency notch very slightly. But I'm just guessing on this one... I would go with the dispersion being the main difference in the sound. A good test would be to alter the room treatments (if any) and see what that effect could be. That would point to the dispersion as being the cause of the noticable "loudness". You may find that you can "tone it down a bit" using the environment and need not adjust for it electronically. But again, just guessing, so take it with a grain of salt... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myhamish Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 'Here's Tony's diagram and message again - first diagram for modded klipschorn project...' hope this is legible...a few notes: 1. active crossover will be using linkwitz riley 48db/octave to minimize phase problems between drivers. 2. I am not sure of the klipschorn bass bin sensitivity rating, the others are taken from the respective manufacturers and include compression driver + horn. I used the K-33E stated sensitivity but if anyone knows the correct K-33E + basshorn reading please give it to me. 3. delays are approximate and were sourced from richard heyser´s measurements in 1989. 4. alternate mid-horn is Fostex H200 and alternate mid-drivers are BMS H4591 and JBL 2485J. 5. top hat is based on q-mans and john warren´s superklipschorn project, check them out at http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/Page_5.html 6. exact crossover points are yet to be determined, I may extend the altec mid horn up to 6KHz before passing to JBL tweeter and I may extend the klipsch bass bin up to 500Hz before passing to Altec mid. listenting tessts will determine final points (comments welcome!) any feedback would be greatly appreciated, tony edit: diagram corrected for sensitivity and impedance too : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 thanks hamish, but that had two errors. this one should be fixed...tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Oh, I get it. A 4 Ohm mid-range driver? I should have kept quiet. Nevermind. How are you going to control and match the power outputs between the amps? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 the electronic crossovers allow very fine level control for all six outputs...tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Tony, I have always wondered about that. Anyway, I have some questions. Are they "amplified" or use attenuators? what is the signal-to-noise ratio? The time-correcting capability is definately a plus, but I asume that there is signal buffering involved. What are the ramifications of that? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 in the case of DBX they use burr brown op amps on the outputs...worst case dynamic range is >110db, distortion maxes at .002% crosstalk at >100db...signal goes a/d process d/a opamp so it is important they use good quality chips in there...tony btw you can check out the candidates yourself: http://www.driverack.com/PA.htm http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG http://www.clarityeq.com/dsp-product/PDC26P-Preamp.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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