sfogg Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 "One more interesting thought, the La Scala and/or Belle would be an even better candidate than a Khorn for 2-way in that they only have 1 fold in a very short horn that would have little degradation of the waveform." I agree... See: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=53469&forumID=68&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={C123E42B-88EF-4631-8721-88822FC8E675} Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Shawn, excellent, how could I have missed that thread?! did you leave the bass bin/driver/crossover stock? That's a (relatively) simple mod that can open up a whole new world of available woofers for you. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 "did you leave the bass bin/driver/crossover stock?" The bass bin and the driver is stock but the crossover was a new design Al did for me for this setup called the ES-600t. He has info about it on his site. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 ---------------- On 9/24/2004 1:26:45 PM D-MAN wrote: One more interesting thought, the La Scala and/or Belle would be an even better candidate than a Khorn for 2-way ... ---------------- I'd also agree. The usable horn bandwidth is limited... and I believe even the Jubilee trades some low end extension to improve the upper end response (it was also designed as a two way). Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFK Posted September 24, 2004 Author Share Posted September 24, 2004 Tom the Ceremetalic woofers dent and are more expensive to produce than carbon graphite-also titanium for the tweets is more expensive than phenolic diaphrams so the argument that Klipsch went from the Legend 3-way to the Reference 2-way to save money does not hold water-it is all about performance. With a more delicate material like Ceremetalic is is more problematic in denting etc than carbon graphite woofers-to save money Klipsch would decide to go with the cheaper carbon graphite that is alot less likely to be damaged in production. Why did Klipsch use Ceremetallic-because it is a more transparent sounding higher performance woofer material-not because there is some kind of conspiracy to cheapen their product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFK Posted September 24, 2004 Author Share Posted September 24, 2004 Also Tom arguing that these 2 way speakers are not true horn speakers does not hold a drop of water either. Paul Klipsch was a huge believer in 2-way speakers-example the original 2-way Klipschorn he personally built and the last product he worked on the 2-way Jubilee. Also take a look at the "Totally horn loaded" 3-way Klipschorn. What is the driver that produces the bass frequencies into the Klipschorn's folded horn?-A 15 inch paper-coned woofer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 "Also Tom arguing that these 2 way speakers are not true horn speakers does not hold a drop of water either." Of course it does.... You said so yourself.... "Also take a look at the "Totally horn loaded" 3-way Klipschorn. What is the driver that produces the bass frequencies into the Klipschorn's folded horn?-A 15 inch paper-coned woofer!" The woofer is horn loaded. In the Reference series the woofer(s) isn't horn loaded. Therefor it isn't a completely horn loaded 2 way. It mixes a horn loaded tweeter with a direct radiator woofer. That doesn't mean it is a bad speaker, just means that it isn't a fully horn loaded speaker. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFK Posted September 24, 2004 Author Share Posted September 24, 2004 The point I was making sfogg was that to argue that 2-way or 3-way horn speakers are not true horn speakers is to argue that a true horn speaker does not exist using that logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 John, "The point I was making sfogg was that to argue that 2-way or 3-way horn speakers are not true horn speakers" No one was arguing that point so you are arguing against a position that no one has made. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 RFK----What the...?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFK Posted September 24, 2004 Author Share Posted September 24, 2004 In summary Tom 2way or 3way speakers are a personal preference to argue that one is better than the other is an excersize in futility. Since the truly perfect speaker would be a one way (because in nature sound does not eminate from tweeters, mids and woofers-it is a combination of frequencies eminating from a source-mixed together perfectly as only nature can produce) a one way speaker would be the ideal both speaking in terms of physics and in terms of logic. Since it is not possible for a single horn or woofer to by itself produce a pleasing 20-20khz presentation we have 2 or 3 or more way speakers with crossovers to produce pleasing sound. Nothing COULD image better than a sound eminating from a single source as apposed to a divided combination of frequencies. Even electrostatic speakers have limitations in presenting 20-20khz in a so-called single driver configuration. If technologically you could produce a single horned speaker that flawlessly presented a 20-20khz performance, then you would have a next to perfect loudspeaker. This is not hard to understand when simple common sense is utilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 ---------------- On 9/24/2004 4:10:37 PM RFK wrote: If technologically you could produce a single horned speaker that flawlessly presented a 20-20khz performance, then you would have a next to perfect loudspeaker. This is not hard to understand when simple common sense is utilized. ---------------- This is what BOSE frequently does - use a single, full range driver/or drivers in their speaker designs. EDIT - on a serious note, Tannoy actually does this with their dual-concentric driver design. I've never heard a Tannoy Dual-concentric. Many audiophiles love them, many hate them (does that sound familiar? LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 One of the bashes against 2 way designs is an audible effect called 'gargling'. As I understand 'gargling', it can occur if the woofer is required to reproduce midrange or part of the midrange while simultaneously playing deep bass, requiring large excursions of the woofer. A warbling effect, or 'gargling' could supposedly make vocals, especially female vocalists 'quaver' Well, I just did an "Xtreme" test of my CF's to see if I could hear this. Using my laptop, I played an MP3 of Sarah McLaughlin's Vox - and brought the sound levels up to just over 0.2 watts (-30 db on my meters) I then layered in my Marchand frequency generator - and started adding constant tone sine wave frequencies below 100 hz. The test ultimately ended by playing a 21 hz sine wave, bringing the levels up to a little above 100 watts continuous. This was more than 20 db above the levels of the "Vox" mp3 - the woofer excursions were so large that the grill cloth could be seen visibly moving on both speakers. The end result? Tuning out the din of resonating windows and walls, I could not detect any 'gargling' or warbling of Sarah's sustained vocalizations. So gargling could be a problem for a poorly designed two way - but Klipsch is obviously not poorly designed. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 ---------------- On 9/23/2004 11:36:16 PM TBrennan wrote: RFK---I think you might be missing the very important point that the old KHorn 2-way was crossed at 500hz and the midrange was entirely horn-loaded, either by the basshorn or mid-treble horn. The classic Altec and JBL 2-way horn systems also crossed-over low, generally at either 500 or 800hz. Thus even Altecs and JBLs that used direct-radiating woofers had much of the midrange horn-loaded. But the RFs cross at 2000hz and even higher. The midrange is from the direct-radiating cone woofer and not from a horn-loaded compression driver. The horn is merely a tweeter. But yeah, 2-way horn systems can sound very good, IMO the finest horn systems are 2-ways. But not 2-ways done like RFs. I'm talking 2-ways done like Altec VOTs; A7s, A7-500s and A5s. ---------------- The advantage of using horns is that it allows for greater sensitivity which lowers frequency modulation distortion. The compromise for this is the introduction of horn throat distortion. Some people are more sensitive to this than fmd. Anyways, my point is that there is a compromise. If you have a direct radiator with the same sensitiviity as a horn, then the direct radiator is going to sound better because it has the same level of fmd without other compromises. In the case of the RF-7, the sensitivity of the woofer matches that of the horn, so technically, the woofer should be producing less colorations in the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 I just wanted to add that the ideal driver would be a monopole that didn't move at all...though this is impossible in the standard direct radiator model. We need a new topology for creating sound before any real improvements are going to happen. Everything going on now is just over-tweaking of an already flawed design (seems to be the trend these days...) One design that has recently come out is a "speaker" that ionizes the air and then moves the ionized air with the magnetic field it generates...this totally skips the entire driver process and converts electrical energy into moving the air. The only problem with these speakers is that any excess "wind" in the room causes the ionized air to be pushed away from the magnetic field which effectively mutes the speaker. Big SPLs are also hard to be achieved, but it's a new technology still being developed. These speakers easily boast 20-20k reproduction (just not very loud) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Dr Who----That a high sensitivity DR cone sounds better than a horn is strictly your opinion, not a fact. And I know of no DR cones that match compression driver sensitivity. Tell ya what. Listen to an Altec 605 compared to an A7-500. The A7, crosing at 500hz, sounds "sharper" and clearer than the 605 which crosses at 1600hz (the woofer is the same in both and the compression drivers are very similar and use the same diaphragm). IMO of course. And in the opinion of most people I know who know the speakers. I think the lighter mass of the compression driver diaphragm, combined with it's more powerful motor and tighter magnetic coupling is doing something that's good for the sound. It's that very "something", whatever it is, which makes some people hornys. If one is concerned about throat distortion one can use large-format 1.4" or 2" throat drivers. Or the newer "short-throat" JBL drivers. IMO nothing sounds better than the 1.4" Altec 288 at midrange and vocal reproduction. On the right horn of course. If I liked cone midrange that much I'da stuck with my Dynaco A-25s. Though I do admit that DR cone midrange can be very good (though usually isn't), I like the vocal reproduction form the model 406 woofs in my Altec Boleros. I'm a reasonable fella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 And who is it that replaced the horn mid with two JBL 10 inchers? Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Marvel----I think that was John Warren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 ---------------- On 9/26/2004 6:04:50 PM TBrennan wrote: Marvel----I think that was John Warren. ---------------- Yup, it was John who did that project, and you can read about it at Replacing The Klipschorn Midrange - The JBL 2123J Project Both sides have valid points, but I think we have to remember the Klipschorn was value engineered. ---------------- On 9/26/2004 9:33:34 AM Cleve wrote: As I understand 'gargling', it can occur if the woofer is required to reproduce midrange or part of the midrange while simultaneously playing deep bass, requiring large excursions of the woofer. ---------------- I think you are referring to "Doppler distortion"... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doudou Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 the french brand cabasse do this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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