AA-to-A network with L-pad midhorn attenuation

[mikebse2a3]

Shawn said:

Actually the opposite occurs when you steer a center channel out. You reduce the comb filtering (frequency response interaction) between the L/Rs as they no longer reproduce as much of the same central material and it instead goes to a single speaker. Also because the distance between the speakers gets closer (between L/C and C/R) where they do comb gets pushed up to a higher frequency and becomes less audible.

Hi Shawn!

Good Point! Of course I was thinking of the center channel with the simple box and even though test might show lots of good/bad interaction our ear/brain is helped more with it than without it. I haven't tried a good processor like the Lexicon and am very interested in Erik's and your observations with it.

I enjoy thinking about things like this then trying experiments and then trying to put those observations together to explain why I did or didn't hear what I expected. I often find myself with more questions than when I started. This Hobby is going to keep my mind busy well into old age!!

mike

[sfogg]

Erik,

"  I've got a pair of perfect speakers for the rear, and can use my small ASUSA 4 watt stereo amp for the rear channels.  Neat!"

Cool. Of course this adds a layer of complexity in trying different speaker positions for the surrounds to see where you like them the best.

"BTW:  Those Radio Shack jacks WERE going to be too tight, Shawn.  Each ground barrell has four little collar/taps, and I neatly broke off one of those on each jack using needle nose. They fit fine, now."

Yeah, they can be really tight sometimes. I appreciate you adjusting the ground collar so they don't grab as much.

" I just get sort of bewildered with complex remotes"

Forget all the stuff on the other layers of the remote. Those are just to give direct access to certain features (great for integrating it) and to control the other zone and such. You really just need the input buttons, mode buttons, volume and the arrow keys.

" and said, "Mr. Mandaville, somone is whistling on your phone!"  I took the phone our of it's holder and said, "Hello?!"  I was met with the sound of someone laughing so hard she couldn't talk!"

That must have been pretty funny!

Shawn

[sfogg]

Mike,

" Of course I was thinking of the center channel with the simple box and even though test might show lots of good/bad interaction our ear/brain is helped more with it than without it."

With a just passive mono 'fill' center channel it probably does comb more then if the center is steered but I also agree that it still sounds better then just plain 2 channel. In the Lex. you can turn off the center steering and it basically just sends a mono mixed signal to the center speaker along the lines of the minibox. I prefer a harder steered center channel though for the reduced comb filtering and even better off axis stability.

" I often find myself with more questions than when I started."

So do I. The more you learn the less you know.

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Absolutely! I realize how little I really know every day!

Well, darn. I have to make a longer cable from center to reach the Lex. Shawn:

Silly Sounding question #1: The center channel is now derived from the combined L/R via Klipsch minibox. I keep thinking in terms of the Lexicon requiring/needing a source feed that has dedicated center channel information on it, which of course isn't the case with conventional stereo CDs.

....I need to go help get this stew going.....

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

"Silly Sounding question #1:  The center channel is now derived from the combined L/R via Klipsch minibox.  I keep thinking in terms of the Lexicon requiring/needing a source feed that has dedicated center channel information on it, which of course isn't the case with conventional stereo CDs."

Nope. The Lexicon can derive a center channel (as well as four channels worth of surround information) out of a conventional 2 channel stereo source... be it a CD or whatever.

They can also deal with discrete multi-channel sources (Dolby Digital or DTS) that have a dedicated center (and or surround(s)) in the mix as would be the case from DVDs. The unit you have has Dolby Digital decoding but not the DTS decoding option. The Lex. can take those discrete 5.1 channels and steer out 7.1 channels. If you want to hear a DD track just play a DVD on your Denon with it connected to the Lex. via a digital connection. The Lex. will do the rest.

Noe: You may need to go into the Denon's setup menus and make a change to the digital output. It might be set to PCM... if so you will need to change that to Bitstream. But worry about that later on.

Shawn

[mike stehr]

"The more you learn the less you know."

That ain't no sh!t neither! I'm in full agreement.

[Erik Mandaville]

Thanks Shawn - next question: Until I get this new cable made, can I use the Lexicon as a straight ahead two channel linestage so we can listen to some music?

[sfogg]

Erik,

" Until I get this new cable made, can I use the Lexicon as a straight ahead two channel linestage so we can listen to some music?"

Certainly, just hit the two channel button on the remote and it will play back the music in two channels. (Plus a sub if configured)

In 2 channel the tone controls and the loudness function will still work so if you want to calibrate the SPL for just the L/R speakers that wouldn't be a bad idea.

At the moment are you connected via L/R analog from your Denon to the Lex. or via digital?

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

I hereby nominate you for some kind of an award -- the 'EAHA' or 'Excellent Audio Help Award'! Thanks so much for your assistance with this. I have always been sort of 'instruction manual challenged,' and I appreciate this very much. In fact, my mom used to try to get me to learn to read things carefully and follow instructions by buying me car and airplane models when I was little. What did I do with them? I threw out the instructions, and found ways to combine parts of the car models with those of the planes in order to make flying carplanes! Hopeless! Maybe that's why I'm an art teacher...

We are connecting via the former -- L/R analog -- but it would be interesting to try an digital interface!

Mike: Well put!

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

I've got things connected as usual, but the display indicates 'No Audio.' Has this been setup of a digital input, maybe?

In other words, the CDP is operating, but there is no sound.

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

"We are connecting via the former -- L/R analog -- but it would be interesting to try an digital interface"

For the optimal sound quality connect via. digital.

For the time being though you might need to configure whatever input you are using to look at the analog input associated with it.

Assuming you plugged into the analog CD input....

Setup -> Input Config -> CD (or whatever input you are using)

Then change/set the following settings:

Gain = Automatic

PCM Effect = Use Last

Audio IN = Analog

The other settings in there don't really apply for music only listening.

If you want to change to a digital input run an RCA cable from the Denon's S/PDIF output to either Coax-1 or Coax-2 on the Lexicon.

You then need to tell the Lex. to use the digital signal instead of the analog. Go back into the input config for the CD input (or whatever input you are using) and set:

Audio In = Coax-1 (or Coax-2 if that is what you plugged it into)

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

I'm going to print a hardcopy of your post above on channel balancing. I rested for a bit yesterday afternoon to get ready for these last two weeks at school before the holiday break, but wanted to at least listen to the Lexicon in 2-channel mode. The remote eventually became pretty intuitive, and I just used the front panel indicaters (rather than TV)to select options. This was with CD input configured for analog, but will use the digital out from the Denon when I get home from school.

A question on volume control: I find the bar level meter for volume needing to be nearly completely filled for good sound levels. Gain is set for Auto as you described, but I'm wondering if there is something else that needs to be done to put the meter more in the middle of its range for 'average' listening levels. It sounds fine, but I'm just curious why I'm having to nearly max out the meter -- is there an input sensitivity level control/feature of some sort?

Sound Quality in 2-channel mode is superb! It is really very good, and just as with some other very good tube preamps I've heard, seems to provide that sort of polished transparency and clarity in music. Just as Mark's Peach, it is completely quiet with the Klipschorns -- no untoward buzzes, hum, or other noises of any kind. We used the center channel via the minibox I built, and it was just fine -- I just don't like how music sounds without that third channel anymore; and being the die-hard two-channel listener that I've been for all these years, I am surprised at my own quick acceptance and strong preference for three front speakers! Having heard enough solid state and vacuum tube preamps, I can say that -- just for me -- the Lexicon is yet another very good example of the kind of happy marriage that's possible between tube and non-tube components. I have a couple of friends that prefer a good solid state preamp to the tube circuits they've tried, but I will gladly go either way if it sounds good to me. I've never cared for being so dogmatic about any medium that I will rather blindly adopt one way over another simply because of some sort of global, philosophical ideaology that....(etc., etc., etc.,)

"It isn't lossless but well done DSP (with enough bits of precision) can do a heck of a lot before it really starts to compromise the integrity or quality of the signal."

I think what I'm trying to say is that, as I continue to learn more about digital information, I'm finding that it seems to lend itself to greater plasticity or manipulation before things start to become not as good. That a component like the Lexicon can provide the means to alter the sound in a way that sounds 'better,' is in my view a positive thing. What I have heard from it so far as a straight forward linestage has been excellent, and I'm looking forward to learning more as I continue.

Thanks for the help, Shawn.

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

" The remote eventually became pretty intuitive, and I just used the front panel indicaters (rather than TV)to select options. "

The remote is pretty straightforward once you learn it. You can do everything from the front panel it just is a little harder to learn the menu trees that way. Once you know them though you will be able to whip through the menus via. the remote and front panel as they are organized pretty well.

"  I find the bar level meter for volume needing to be nearly completely filled for good sound levels.  Gain is set for Auto as you described, but I'm wondering if there is something else that needs to be done to put the meter more in the middle of its range for 'average' listening levels."

Having the volume in the -20 to 0dB range is actually normal. But to make sure it is correct you need to do the channel balancing to 75dB as that will get the volume control calibrated because it changes the output levels somewhat.

Don't really don't worry that you are near the higher end of the volume control, that is how it should be and just lets you have a greater range of the volume control without overdriving your amps. You literally have a stepped attenuator with a 92 1dB steps on it.

"-- is there an input sensitivity level control/feature of some sort?"

That is what the GAIN = Auto is doing. It is setting the input level to maximize the analog input level without clipping the A/Ds. If you go into that setting again it will probably show you where the input level is set to and I'd guess it will be a couple of dB below zero. If it is still at 0dB trying turning that up a few dB then turning auto back on. You might find that on loud music the red clip light on the front panel will flash and the Lex. will turn down the input gain to avoid that.

" What I have heard from it so far as a straight forward linestage has been excellent, and I'm looking forward to learning more as I continue."

How is this to blow you mind then.... what you have heard so far is not just a straight forward line stage.

The Lex. is actually taking that analog input and passing it through an analog to digital (A/D) converter to convert the signal to digital. It then goes through its DSP sections (where it can do whatever processing you want) then it converts the signal back to analog with its D/As and passes the signal through the volume controls and line stage. So much for the thought some have that an A/D automatically kills sound quality huh?

With a digital connection you bypass the D/A in your Denon and its linestage and the A/D in the Lexicon which is why I was suggesting that for the optimal sound quality.

"I think what I'm trying to say is that, as I continue to learn more about digital information, I'm finding that it seems to lend itself to greater plasticity or manipulation before things start to become not as good.  "

Yup, you have a lot more flexibility in the digital world then if you tried to do everything the Lex. can do in the analog domain. Some of it almost couldn't be done analog.

Have fun,

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

"That is what the GAIN = Auto is doing. It is setting the input level to maximize the analog input level without clipping the A/Ds. If you go into that setting again it will probably show you where the input level is set to and I'd guess it will be a couple of dB below zero. If it is still at 0dB trying turning that up a few dB then turning auto back on. You might find that on loud music the red clip light on the front panel will flash and the Lex. will turn down the input gain to avoid that."

Alright, I've got that, and the red light did flash a few times. I need to get these channels balanced! (Marie is enjoying a little video game she got for herself, and I don't want to interfere with that) I'll try to get this done in an hour or so.

We really enjoyed what we heard yesterday!

Thanks!

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

"We really enjoyed what we heard yesterday!"

Cool...but....

... if you were listening in just plain 2 channel you ain't heard nothing yet!

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Ok. I'm stuck, Shawn:

I've reprogrammed the Lex for CD input coax 1 rather than analog. No problem there. I've gone to the speaker output calibration feature, but am only getting sound from L and R. I think my problem is that I'm still in two channel-only mode, but don't know how to get out!

For speaker setup, should L/R and C be configured for 'Small' or 'Large'? I think I may have accidentally erased the way you set this up for three front speakers.

Also: for 2-channel CD input config I used:

Gain = Auto

PCM Effect = Use Last

Audio in = Analog (which has been changed to coax 1 input)

What should 'Gain' and 'PCM Effect' be changed back to for a digital input?

I'm getting close! Thanks so much for your patience with my modern technology challenged brain! When this is figured out, I will make ya a nice vase on the potter's wheel for all this help! I've printed just about everything you've written that relates to this, Shawn. At least I'm getting practice navigating through the menu trees!

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

Please enjoy your evening and don't worry about this! I will work on it and figure it out!

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Ok. I've got the answers regarding the speaker size (duh!), but will continue to work on the rest until I'm too tired! And then I'll get back to it tomorrow. At least I can set the levels for the L and R channels this evening!

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

"I've gone to the speaker output calibration feature, but am only getting sound from L and R.  I think my problem is that I'm still in two channel-only mode, but don't know how to get out!"

The mode doesn't have any effect when you are in internal noise test so that isn't it.

Couple of things to try...

First make sure the center channel is enabled in the speaker config. menu. Set it to SMALL with a 120hz crossover.

Second double check your cable/amp/speaker. An easy test is to move it to the L or R output and give the noise test a try. If you are using an amp with a volume control for the center make sure it is turned up at least a little bit to allow some signal into the amp.

It should be either of those two things as most of the rest of the settings in the Lex. are bypassed when doing the noise test.

"For speaker setup, should L/R and C  be configured for 'Small' or 'Large'?  I think I may have accidentally erased the way you set this up for three front speakers."

Set the L/R to LARGE and the Center probably to 120hz. That will redirect the bass from the center speaker to your L/Rs.

"What should 'Gain' and 'PCM Effect' be changed back to for a digital input?"

Gain has no effect at all since there is no analog input gain with the analog input.

PCM Effect isn't analog or digital specific. What that setting does is tell the Lexicon to load a specific mode when it receivers a PCM signal. The Use Last just does as its name implies and uses the last mode you were using for that input format on that input.

Shawn

[sfogg]

Erik,

BTW, I thought of a simple DIY project for when you want to get tricky and make the system more integrated. Think about taking advantage of the 12v trigger connections on the Lexicon.

If you open up a simple power bar and put a 12v relay on the hot you can attach the relays coil to the 12v Power trigger on the back of the Lexicon. Then if you plug your amps into that power bar (and leave them turned on) the amps will automatically turn on and off with the Lexicon. You will need a 5pin DIN plug to make the connection to the Lex. R/S has (or at least had) them.

Shawn