Guest Anonymous Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 i just bought 5 pairs of canare analog interconnects and i found out that they are not labeled for direction, i was wondering if anyone here knew how to test the direction of the cable? thanks for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Unless the wiring was formed and drawn in a magnetic force field, there is no particular polar directivity to the molocules forming the wire. The "idea" of directivity is a Monster Cable thing. I personally think that it is merely a bogus sales point. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 I agree with D-Man. The idea that electricity, or the flow of electrons in a wire circuit, can be directional just sounds like hogwash to me. At least unti you get into the really high end interconnects, where part of the price is the intensive training they give the copper atoms in the wire so they all remember which way to line up once connected to a source. In fact, I can't verify it, but I've heard this training is so extreme that they need to send the wires off for a couple days in the sun on the beach about midway through the training period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 My understanding of the "direction" thing is that it's only for unbalanced I/Cs with two internal conductors, one for "positive" and one for "negative" signals, and an outer RF shield which doesn't conduct any signal. This is in contrast to unbalanced I/Cs with only have one internal conductor which carries the "positive" signal, and the shield which does double duty as the conductor of the "negative" signal and shielding against RF. In the former, 2-internal conductor type, the shield only needs to be grounded at one end. The most common theory is to have the ground at the delivery or outflow end of the I/C, and I think that's how Monster Cable labels them. EDIT: That's the purpose of the arrows (end edit). You can see this if you look inside the barrels at both ends. Some companies (Siltech) believe the opposite. I don't think it makes any real difference which way you put them, but I naturally follow the directions anyway. Some companies (BAT) hype balanced I/Cs by contrasting them only with single-internal unbalanced leads and the implied inferiority of asymmetrical conductors. I'm not so sure about that, either. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Directivity is not the same as polarity. Monster puts little arrows on their interconnects (so does AudioQuest, amongst others) to indicate signal flow. They are implying that signal flows directionally in their conductors BETTER in one direction than the other REGARDLESS of signal POLARITY (which alternates, kids). I find this UNTESTABLE and therefore UNPROVABLE, leading me to the conclusion that it is merely a bogus sales tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 ---------------- On 12/10/2004 4:48:10 PM LarryC wrote: In the former, 2-internal conductor type, the shield only needs to be grounded at one end. Larry ---------------- Exactly. To prevent the current from the shield from interfering with the signal, the shield is usually terminated at the source end of the interconnect. That's the only 'directionality' that's explained by real physics, everything else is BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 ---------------- On 12/10/2004 4:56:18 PM D-MAN wrote: Directivity is not the same as polarity. Monster puts little arrows on their interconnects (so does AudioQuest, amongst others) to indicate signal flow. ---------------- The arrows serve to point to the end where the shield is grounded. Monster puts them there to help the customer insert the correct thingy into the correct hole. I was using "positive" and "negative" as arbitrary designators of RCA connectors' pin and shield (edit: I meant "ground") conductors, not as an indicator of actual polarity. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 So as to not confuse anybody, on an unbalanced RCA-type IC set (i.e. phono plug), there is no shield. If the shield wire (if any) is connected to anything other than ground (which it is not with RCA connectors), it is no longer a shield, it's a conductor. Balanced IC's are a different matter, of course. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 here is my thinking on the subject the onyl reason that i would think this is due to the way that the copper strands are wound, therfore having less resistance in one direction than the otherr, which is the theory behind some of those incredibly expensive cables.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 I ain't all that smart, but I don't see how, unless someone can show me the physics and some measurements to back it up, that directional winding should effect the resistance of a copper wire. Remember, when you flow current through a wire, it's not like it actually has to go through the wire then reach the other end. Basically, you shove in one electron on one end, and one electron falls out the other end. Kinda like those suspended metal balls that you used to see on people desks, the middle balls showed no movement when you dropped the end one down, all the energy was transfered to the ball on the opposite end and it would bounce away from the set. I welcome anyone to show me the error of my ways if I've made any improper assumptions about how this stuff works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 ---------------- On 12/10/2004 6:50:29 PM Gramas701 wrote: here is my thinking on the subject the onyl reason that i would think this is due to the way that the copper strands are wound, therfore having less resistance in one direction than the other, which is the theory behind some of those incredibly expensive cables.... ---------------- Music/audio signals go both directions, not one-way. There is no such thing as uni-directional signal flow OR cable design. The only issue is whether there is a shield grounded at one end, and it doesn't sound like it in your case. I think you can install your unmarked cables any way you please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Music/audio signals go both directions, not one-way. There is no such thing as uni-directional signal flow OR cable design. Dang it Larry, I meant to include that in my post and forgot to. Good point though. Like designing a one lane road that has traffic going both directions at different times of the day but has a smoother surface one way than the other. It's the same road, hence has the same bumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 I have thought it silly to put directional arrows on interconnects. However, when I am setting up my system and using Monster interconnects, the arrows seem compelling... So plug them in so the signal flows the way the arrow points. Power of suggestion is strong, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyhorns Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Whatever happened to traditional hole flow, these days, everybody is so darned worried about those electrons! Unless there is some design/mechanical difference from one end to the other, IMO cables are not directional. ] Note: I did follow the arrows on my cable, but only because they were there, not because I was expecting to hear a sonic difference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 i wish i could find that article.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelerFan Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 ---------------- On 12/10/2004 4:48:10 PM LarryC wrote: My understanding of the "direction" thing is that it's only for unbalanced I/Cs with two internal conductors, one for "positive" and one for "negative" signals, and an outer RF shield which doesn't conduct any signal. This is in contrast to unbalanced I/Cs with only have one internal conductor, which carries the "positive" signal, and the shield which does double duty as the conductor of the "negative" signal and shielding against RF. In the former, 2-internal conductor type, the shield only needs to be grounded at one end. As I understand it, the most common theory is to have the ground at the delivery or outflow end of the I/C, and I think that's how Monster Cable labels them. You can see this if you look inside the barrels at both ends. Some companies (Siltech) believe the opposite. I don't think it makes any real difference which way you put them, but I naturally follow the directions anyway. Some companies (BAT) hype balanced I/Cs by contrasting them only with single-internal unbalanced leads and the implied inferiority of asymmetrical conductors. I'm not so sure about that, either. Larry ---------------- Forgive me, I know nothing about this stuff and I'd like to ask a dumb question: Is there such a thing as unbalanced interconnects that act like balanced ones? The reason I ask is I have a ground loop hum I believe is comimg through my interconnects. I have a feeling using balanced ones might cure it but I don't have that option because my preamp supports unbalanced only. I'm using Cobalt cables right now. I tried switching them out with the bluejeans cables I have my DVD player hooked up with but it didn't cure the hum. Is there some kind of unbalanced ones with a different jacket or conductor type that might help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 ---------------- On 12/11/2004 6:16:28 PM SteelerFan wrote: ... Is there such a thing as unbalanced interconnects that act like balanced ones? The reason I ask is I have a ground loop hum I believe is comimg through my interconnects. I have a feeling using balanced ones might cure it but I don't have that option because my preamp supports unbalanced only. I'm using Cobalt cables right now. I tried switching them out with the bluejeans cables I have my DVD player hooked up with but it didn't cure the hum. Is there some kind of unbalanced ones with a different jacket or conductor type that might help? ---------------- Steeler, uh, I'm far from the best trouble-shooter on the forum, but in my long home hi-fi experience, interconnects are not a source of hum unless there's a break in the ground connection. That will definitely cause hum, but usually affects only one I/C or channel. More questions than answers come to mind: is the hum on both sides or just one? Is it present with all sources or just one? Is it present even if all sources (phono, CD, tuner) are turned off? Does it vary with the volume control, or is the specific hum you hear steady regardless of volume control position? Is it the same at all times, or does it vary with the time of day? Or with your position around the equipment? How long are your interconnects -- the usual 1 meter, or much longer? To step back, are we talking a 2-channel setup, or a complicated home theater arrangement? I'll tell you right now that I have no experience with HT. To go back to your original Q.: I don't think hum comes from healthy interconnects, or that you should pursue those various alternates. I would look elsewhere. As far as balanced and unbalanced is concerned, there have been numerous forum threads debating whether there is any performance difference between balanced and unbalanced I/Cs -- there seems to be a consensus that there is no audible difference in home hi-fi settings, but that balanced equipment and leads become critical with very long runs and in pro sound setups. Hopefully others can chime in, but we do need more information in response to the above questions. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelerFan Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Larry, I just thought I'd take a shot at it from the interconnect angle hoping there was some special type of unbalanced ones made for a problem like this. I can hook up my amp to the speakers and there is no hum. As soon as I hook up my preamp I get the hum. This is with nothing else connected. It's the mains and surrounds that hum, I just get a very subtle high pitched whine from the center. The surrounds hum the worst and I sit closest to them ofcourse. I would blame it on the preamp except I had an NAD amp and preamp for a short time and had the exact same thing so I returned them. My interconnects are 1M and the hum is constant, does not vary with volume. I was thinking maybe balanced interconnects would possibly help but are not an option for me. I really love my McCormack preamp. Possibly the Jensen audio isolaters might work but that would run me $475 plus I'd have to double up my interconnects. Thanks for your response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 I just can't help but comment that directionality in wire is just nonsense. The "audio" interconnect wire manufacturers can hype this all they want. Funny that the industries which rely on transmission, e.g., commercial recording studios, telcos, computer networks, NASA, the military, etc., never report it. As pointed out, the signal is AC and thus it is always reversing the flow of charge. I suppose you could set up a test rig with a signal generator and load, with testing equipment on either end, and then see whether reversing the wire does anything. The problem is, no one can detect a loss of audio frequencies over three feet of wire to begin with. I'm all for better audio. We all are. This, though, is not a problem, and thus there is nothing to solve. Smile, Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 SteelerFan, I'd stop by a grocery store and pick up one of those little 3-wire to 2-wire adapters. Use it to plug in either the amp or the source component, it'll eliminate any chance of a ground loop. This worked on my SS stuff for the TV. I have a Sony DVD/VCR combo hooked up to a Nakamichi HT receiver. With both of them plugged into the power strip there is a hum with characteristics like yours. I put one of those adapters (ground lifter) on the plug of the DVD player and it goes away. Works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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