Steve_L Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I recently purchased a new HT system. I haven't been too involved in audio for many years, but I loved it back on the late 60s when I was studying electronics in college. Back then we studied a lot about things like impedance, inductive and capacity reactance with lots of focus on analog and about a semster on digital. So, anyway, this year I decided to buy a new HT system for the family (and me) and went out and bought a Synergy F3 set of speakers with the KSW-12, S-3s/C3 and I also bought a Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K. I also bought a new DVD palyer. Pioneer DV-563A. I ended up also buying about $300 dollars of Monster cables for all of the wiring for this. I intended to keep my Sony 32 inch Trinitron for a while and let the prices come down a bit on the video side of things. ...but, last week I'm in NYC on business and my wife decides she is going to start rearranging furniture to fit the tree and such.. and to make a long story short, I need a new TV. So I go to BB today to look at sets, and I'm not sure what I want, Plasma, LCD, rear projection.. it's such a huge maze of techno-speak, and the manufactures all use their own proprietary terms to mean some of the same things.. but anyway, I tell one of the young sales guys that I am in the market and he asks me my budget. So I tell him it's like something less than $3K. He says, "with cables or without cables"? This kind of sets me back, because I'm thinking well, I've got this 1014 AV receiver and I have one set of cables that goes from that to the TV, and really, how much can one set of cables cost? Bear in mind that I have yet to hear an argument that these expensive cables do, what I think is important to do, which I "think" (please correct me if I'm worng) is to present a consistent impedance to the output device and similarly to the input device across the frequency spectrum. I hear a lot of mumbo jumbo, but not anything electrically meaningful. Anyway, what happened was this young salesman was obsessed with the need to sell me multiple sets of Video cables, and a "Harmony" remote control. He lost any focus at all on selling me a TV set. It was like the TV set was the complete after the fact of the whole thing and it was much more important to get these Monster cables and Harmony remote control. He insisted I should A) bypass the receiver for all of the video signals, Use Monster cables (in fact he said they were the "low end" of the cables and that he uses much more expensive ones on his system) C) do the "Haromony" remote control thing. I asked him to explain to me electrically why the Monster cables were important. He told me that when the Cables are bent, at corners, that the Monster Cables keep the wire in the middle of the insulator, thereby keeping resistance to a minumum, and that the Monster Cables were less reisistant in general to the cheaper cables. I really frustrated this guy because I wouldn't just take his word for it that these Monster Cables we mandatory to the installation. I finally asked him if he agreed that it was really the capacitive and inductive reactance of the cables that maybe were important and that maybe it was that if these were equal that they would cancel each other out and present a pure resistive load to the output of the receiver or other device and therefore a flat frequency reponse. Well... this really P'd him off, because I was now using bigger words than he was! LOL! I have the strong suspicion that the biggest reason stores want to sell Monster cable is that they make a huge margin on them. I'll bet they make almost as much money "profit margin" on Monster Cables, as they make on selling a DVD player. or some similarly expensive component, if not more! I'll bet they made more money selling me the Monster cables than they did selling me the Pioneer 1014 which was 500 bucks. I think the biggest reason they get so involved with selling these cables isn't because they make so much difference to the eyes or ears, but that it makes a big difference to the profit of the stores. Am I wrong about this? I am perfectly willing to be wrong, and I am sincerly asking for all and any Monster Cable or other even more expensive brand cables (what are they?) to please explain to me what exactly it is, electrically, that is the criteria for design and is it rated measured using electrical terms? I've gotten the "Skin Effect" marketing jargon from the MC website, but I have yet to find that type of discussion in a electrical engineering text book. Maybe mine are dated? I don't know. So guys, really, how much of this Monster Cable stuff is real and how much is pure profit margin for BB, Tweeter and others? Also, what are the other "more high end" vendors of cables? I never did get to see those. I ended up walking out without buying anything. I dunno, I am thingking one of the Sony rear projection units, or maybe the Samsung DLP, they're in my price range and have HD capability for less that $3K, but I'm still on the fence about the TV too, so if you have any advice, I'm all ears. Thanks, Ride Safe and Rock On! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Hi Steve L and welcome. While we did not test interconnects, but speaker wire, the last 2 years at the Klipsch summer get together, we have tried several tests with devices GIL, and Trey at Klipsch set up to be utmost fair in setting up for a blind fair test between esoteric cables and lamp cord. Read cables that were 2k- 10k a few feet verses some .23 cent per foot white generic lamp cord. And no, no one on a consistent basis could really identify any difference at all. I too have a little background in college in physics although forgotten most of it at 43..LOL. We did a lot with electricity, built x overs ,wired things for electricity, and audio sound. I agree most of this new cable thing marketing is BS. I think interconnects, while the flimsy wire supplied might do the trick, (and even I upgraded a little bit) also share this snake oil problem. To spend 100's if not 1000's of dollars is slick marketing and crazy! IMO. But you have to sell product and have articles in Stereophile I guess. Paul Klipsch had a very famous line he captured on a yellow button. BullSh!t. As for the HDTV.. Samsung is a fantastic DLP. IMO, worth every penny I paid a year later. You can't say that about a lot of things you buy today. Especially electronics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Your gut feelings are correct. If you want my advice on a TV, the Samsung DLPs are just terrific. My brother in law has one, and I'm very much in the market to follow him. There are other good things out there but this looks like a winner. The wire stuff, in this application, is total bull. At best we're moving a 3 megahertz video signal about two feet from one component to the other. Funny how we can get TV RF at 100 megaherts from the antenna to the tube with twin lead over 100 feet with no ill effects. Yet now there is a problem. You might have been blessed with taking Fields and Waves, which is basic transmission line issues. Please note that it addresses transmission of signals over lines which are many, many wavelengths long. Characteristic impedance of the line, capacitance, inductance, impedance of the source, impedance of the load, losses, are legit concerns. But only in the setting of very long lines. With our stuff, the output impedance of component is very low and it will keep up output with the marginal capacitance or inductance of any connector and line. The input impedance at the load end is high and does not load down the driving source. The transfer of the signal is not a problem. Super wire can't solve a problem which does not exist in the first place. (My credo these days. Smile.) There is, OTOH, much to be learned about how video and audio signals are moved around, and switched, in the issue of a digital connection versus analog. That deserves a close watch and you have to do some reading. I just received this month's Sound and Vision. It is more a glossy shill for advertisers than I'd like. None the less, it has a good article on the basics of HDTV for someone who is coming on board. There is some good tech stuff in between the advertisements. Best, Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Video cables require good construction due to the bandwidth requirements of video. Good construction does not need to break the bank. The big cable debate in video is whether component video is better than digital. It varies depending on the specific pieces of equipment. The reason that the sales drone wanted the information is that he has to push the expensive cables. Expensive cables cary as much or more gross profit than the TV. The next thing he will try to push is an extended warranty. Buyer beware! As far as TV technology goes, I'd stay away from plasma due to cost and plama burn. bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 will fix later today... sorry i think faster than i type sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_L Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 Thanks to all who responded. Much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoker Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 One thing I do agree with the salesmen is running each video signal to your TV and duplicate audio for your cable /sat to your receiver and display. While this will cost you more in cables you don't have to turn on your receiver to watch plain TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I would HIGHLY recommend everyone boycotting Monster Cable products, based on some things I've just read about their business practices. They have the arrogance/audacity to try and trademark a basic English word 'Monster' and seem to sue anyone and everyone who has the word "Monster" in their product or business name, no matter how utterly unrelated to the business of cables or electronics. Here's an interesting website - a seller of CLOTHING called 'Monster Vintage' is being harassed by 'ambulance chasers' at Monster. http://www.monstervintage.com/#monstercable Also check this out, it's a U.S. Patent Office listing of the mountain of lawsuits that Monster Cable has fired against other businesses. They're actually suing a place called Boudreaux's Cajun Kitchen for having a slogan "Home of the Monster Shrimp" http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?qt=adv&pno=&qs=monster+cable+products&propno=&propnameop=&propname=&pop=&pn=&pop2=&pn2=&cop=&cn= I'm sorry I bought two Monster Cables in July for my Mac amp. They won't get any more of my money. I just won't support businesses with these kind of ludicrious and unethical practices. Unbelievable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 While I believe in good quality, well constructed cabling, I also believe that Monster has the worst price/performance ratio of any cable in the business. Their cables are fragile, easily compromised, and in general not as well built as similarly priced cabling by other brands. When I went into business selling and installing home theater, I went out of my way to find other cable brands for my installations, simply because I didn't want to deal with the headache of coming back to someone's home to replace a cable that had broken or otherwise degraded prematurely. I include Ultralink cables with my standard installations, and if someone really wants an expensive esoteric cable, I offer them XLO. Rat Shack has now embraced the Monster brand for the same reason Best Buy and Circuit City did - the gross profit margins are absolutely ludicrous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_L Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 ---------------- (section snipped for brevity and focus) Rat Shack has now embraced the Monster brand for the same reason Best Buy and Circuit City did - the gross profit margins are absolutely ludicrous. ---------------- If you had seen the display of "Monster Cable Madness" that I saw at BB yesterday you would have fallen down laughing. The TV became sooooo secondary to the sale of the cables that was astounding. It was as if they said "Well, it doesn't really matter what you buy for a TV, just pick one, it's ALL ABOUT THE CABLES." I guess thats because it's ALL ABOUT THE PROFIT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Gramas---Your post is unreadable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 ---------------- On 12/21/2004 9:24:07 AM Steve_L wrote: If you had seen the display of "Monster Cable Madness" that I saw at BB yesterday you would have fallen down laughing. The TV became sooooo secondary to the sale of the cables that was astounding. It was as if they said "Well, it doesn't really matter what you buy for a TV, just pick one, it's ALL ABOUT THE CABLES." I guess thats because it's ALL ABOUT THE PROFIT ---------------- I worked at Best Buy for two years, and was the resident master of selling Monster cables. However, I was also the only one in there that consistently knew what I was talking about with the equipment - that's why I had no trouble selling the cables - my customers had supreme confidence in my knowledge of the technology, so they had no doubts that if I said the cables had to be Monster, it was the truth. My personal love affair with Monster soured after several cables I bought broke inexplicably under very minimal stress, and I was informed by Monster that I had to pay $10 "shipping and handling" if I wanted them to honor the "Lifetime Warranty".... Oh - and yes, the salespeople are trained thoroughly over there to sell the cables and the service plan constantly - and they are given no information at all about the equipment - so they are literally taught to ignore the equipment choices and sell the "attachments" (as they call them) When I worked in the HT department at BB, I made a point to teach everyone in the department how to sell the high end equipment first, and worry about the cables and service plans after they had gained the customer's confidence. Amazing - we were the #1 HT department in the company for 3 months before my back gave out on me, and when I got back 6 months later they were in the toilet because of the turnover... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 "Gramas---Your post is unreadable." Thanks Tom. I was beginning to think it was me. Whenever I read threads like this, I thank ged I have an A/V store like Audio-Video Warehouse. Case in point... I stop in there a week or so ago and tell the owner I was thinking about using a secondary video out from my B&K Ref.50 to drive a small video display in order to setup the B&K or to make changes. That way I wouldn't have to fire up my projector just to display the on screen display menu. So I ask him what kind of solution he could provide me. His answer? He suggested that I go to Radio Shack or BB or CC or WalMart and pick up a small TV. That although he carried the Sharp Aquos line, he felt that was over-kill for my needs. Ya gotta love honesty like that. Tom ps: I'd like to see those sumb*tches at Monster Cable take on Ducati over the use of the word on Ducati's Monster 620 or Monster 1000 or Monster S2r. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Ok, they're not 'Monster' cables, but when I started with my Cornwalls, I purchased a good amount of 'Ultimate' speaker cables, very fine stranded, 12 ga I think, 'oxygen-free' whatever that is copper wire. After about 10 years this is the most corroded pile of garbage I've ever seen. No matter where you cut or strip the wires, it is pure green, with corrosion literally flaking off the conductors. Nothing like my Radio Shack or Lowes 16 or 14 ga zip cord. I'll never fall for the 'good' stuff again. Klipsch would do well to eliminate this from it's marketing jargon as it just shows how they have done the same swan dive into the mung! Michael my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 ---------------- Griffinator wrote: I worked at Best Buy for two years, and was the resident master of selling Monster cables. However, I was also the only one in there that consistently knew what I was talking about with the equipment - that's why I had no trouble selling the cables - my customers had supreme confidence in my knowledge of the technology, so they had no doubts that if I said the cables had to be Monster, it was the truth. ---------------- Well, I guess I bought into the whole Monster cable thing, but not necessarily by choice; it was the only cables they had in the lengths I needed at Tweeter, Best Buy, and Circuit City! I ended up getting some generous discounts since I bought them with my TV, but I'm sure they still made a killing on me. I did end up getting a Monster DVI cable via an online retailer for $80 (instead of $130 at T/BB/CC). ---------------- Steve_L wrote: I ended up walking out without buying anything. I dunno, I am thingking one of the Sony rear projection units, or maybe the Samsung DLP, they're in my price range and have HD capability for less that $3K, but I'm still on the fence about the TV too, so if you have any advice, I'm all ears. ---------------- I did A LOT of brand and model comparison shopping and decided on the the Samsung DLP HL-P5063W. After much effort, I got the best deal at CC: $2350, free delivery, 24-months 0% financing. My wife (who normally has no interest in electronics) and I are crazy about it. Now if I could only figure out a way to simplify the use of the entire system so that my wife doesn't get so frustrated trying to figure it all out--A Harmony function-based remote? A PPC running Total Remote? ---------------- Griffinator wrote: One thing I do agree with the salesmen is running each video signal to your TV and duplicate audio for your cable /sat to your receiver and display. While this will cost you more in cables you don't have to turn on your receiver to watch plain TV. ---------------- Agreed, but this does make it more difficult for novices when they want to use the receiver and display together--have to select the input on both the TV and the receiver. I'm starting to lean towards sending everything through the receiver as this makes the whole system easier to use; granted it does mean turning on the receiver every time one wants to watch TV--which is fine by me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelerFan Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 When I bought my Toshiba TV and DVD player from BB the salesman(kid) told me the AR cables were cheaper and would work fine. I remember thinking management wouldn't be very happy with him if they heard that. I wasn't about to pay the premium for Monster and wanting to hurry up and try out my new toys I took the AR's figuring I'd replace them sometime in the future. They are still working fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRB Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Griff, I too have had monster cables woes. All I used when I first started upgrading equipment. I have had monster cable connectors bend and break with little pressure. I even had a monster cable that was causing a scratching / hissing noise. They are so far from quaility it is amazing. What this boils down to is that monster has developed a very good marketing strategy with great packaging. I would also assume they have cut deals with BB, CC, Tweeter, etc. to sell them cable at HUGE volume discounts. Thus increasing their sales, allowing for more marketing, deeper discounts to the mega retailers and so on and so on. As a result, the mega retailer has even more incentive to sell them because of the margins. Can't even remember what I have in the snake pit now, but it is all mid-priced cable that came from an independent retailer. No MONSTER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I will say, I DO support Monster Cable and their line of power conditioners\surge protectors... I saw a picture here posted by a member from the original trek to Hope in 01, that showed a pair of Khorns powered by an Adcom GFA-555 I believe, and hooked up to Monster Cable...could PWK be wrong...doubt it... North American made all around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I was in Hope in '01. Given Paul's health, I'm quite certain he did not make any decisions about wire to use. I assume Monster Wire and Fred had deal going. Perhaps Fred, et al. had the stuff in bulk. So there is nothing to be infered. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 touche, but I still feel a picture speaks a thousand words, besides, never heard a complaint from anyone there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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