mikebse2a3 Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Colin Said CDs certainly do have things musical below 40 Hz, no matter what the subject matter! I am using a Real Time Analyzer right now, the Behringer DEQ2496 UltraCurve Pro. Let me tell you, even the human voice has harmonics that extend below 40Hz. ----------------- I would like to hear Colin's or anyone with experience with this type of equilizers opinions on the benefits or any noticeable drawbacks to using one of these in their system. I've been working with room treatments for years and I've come to the point of thinking that if you have to work with less than ideal room sizes and shapes that after reasonable amount of room treatments that a modern type equilizer like this might be able to improve a system futher. I would love to try a Tact or similar but cost are still really up there. The price of this unit seems very reasonable for the features. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Arkytype was using one of these,(Behringer) and Colin heard his system, too. Seems like Colin has one in his system. This unit seems to be a champ in bang for the buck dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 it is under review, have to put my system back together first, room treatments come first, since EQ can not correct everything, but HK and common wosdom says that the flatter and wider the frequency response, the better we perceive the accuracy of the system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Just testing this was second time in three days that the forum stoped letting me post giving me a banned warning.Is anyone else having a problem like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Thanks Colin and Daddy Dee for the responses. Well curiosity got the best of me and I called around to see if I could find the EQ. Found it at Guitar Center and they said I could try one for 30days so I figured it was time to try one for myself since it had been many years since I had tried EQs without much success. I just felt I had reached the limits with setup and room treatments(and yes these need to be done as much as possible first before EQing) and it was obvious to me that the room was still just throwing the system way off balance. I can tell you already that it will be staying in my system. Just beginning to learn to use all its options but it has already adressed some of the problems I haven't been able to solve completely.It has been an overall improvement.Every CD I tried was more listenable/musical which indicates to me a real improvement to the system/room. Clarity and Tonality were the two most noticable improvements. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Mike, this has made me curious, but I admit I am not sure how/where does one connect the Behringer to the rest of the system and how complicated is setting it up? So some more info (also concerning its performance) will be appreciated . Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Hello Wolfram The unit can be hooked up through digital or balanced inputs/outputs. Right now I've kept it simple and am using a RCA to XLR adapter cables. I've installed the unit between the CD player and Pre-amp.You should be able to install it before your power-amp if you have several sources in your system.The unit has not added any noise in my system with Khorns. AS far as using it, I must say reading the manual was more complicated than just hooking it up and doing a little hands on playing. Once I started using it I started getting pretty acustom to each knob/buttons function.Its was kind of like using a simple computer menu. Their is a Auto-EQ function that you can use to get started and I ran a couple of curves with the 1/3 octave EQ last night with the Mic in my listening location. One with doors(2) open to the room and one with doors closed. They both sounded very good and I did lower the boost it wanted to give me at the very highest range of the tweeter(4.5db instead of 8db because the highs were hitting some diffusors next to this door(when open) sending alot of the range out of the room). with the doors open.Also below 100hz they suggest not using the Auto-EQ to set these so adjusting these freq. by ear is called for.With doors closed +/- 3.5 db was all the boost or cut was asked for in the Auto-Eq mode and I have to say it was very good sounding with out any adjustments by me.I'm just surprised that what seemed like such relatively small amounts of adj. has made such an important change in the quality of my sound. I'm sure over the next couple of months I can fine tune things even better. I've not even used the (10 band)Parametric EQ function yet but for anyone who has severe room mode issues(and can't use bass traps) this might just be your answer.(Note again: I do use room treatments and bass traps so the EQ has a better foundation to start with than a completely untreated room) I believe if you can do like me and have the option to try one and take it back if your not satisfied and get your money back it would be well worth the experience and you will learn alot about your listening room and sound. After using it for just a short period of time I couldn't imagine not wanting it in my system because it aloud me to relax and hear the music not the system/room.I caught myself really caught up in the music even when I was trying to pay attention to what the EQ was doing I would slip back into the musical performance. I sincerely don't believe any changes in my equipment(amp-preamp-CD/Dac-Cables) could do what this EQ has done for my system. If your on the equipment swapping merry-go-round this little EQ just might allow you to get off and just listen to the music. mike Edit: Another great feature of this EQ is you can put different settings in memory and compare them. web site for all the features: http://www.behringer.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 did you use RTA to find the problems below 100Hz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Mike, thanks a lot for your input. So I assume using it with more than one input (i.e. digitaly, vinyl, tuner) I could put it between pre- and poweramp, or would it have to be reset with each change of listening volume? Colin, what's RTA? Can the Behringer not be used to balance a sub (i.e. below 100hz) into a system? I guess I'll have to have a look at the manual . Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 haven't compared it to bass management system, but did not like bass boost with ADC graphic EQ - it was too much and muddied the mid and upper bass 2a3man, what did you learn about your room EQ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 what three things would you tell a newbie about the DEQ2496? what/who did you use for interconnects? make your own? did you get a microphone extension cable? did you use the FBD yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Colin, et al--- I've used the DEQ-2496 for several months with my horns. Since it is an electronic version of a "Swiss Army Knife", I'd recommend downloading the owner's manual from the Behringer web site to understand all the neat things it has built in. I purchased the DEQ-2496 after converting the AA networks to AL's Extreme Slope networks and changing the K-400 horn and K-77 to the Altec 811B and Beyma CP-25 respectively. Changing the networks and horns made an audible improvement, to be sure. However, not one to leave well enough alone, I wanted to try smoothing the midrange with a little EQ. The Behringer unit offered the most bang for the buck by offering some powerful EQ modes (parametric, 1/6-octave, shelving) and the ability to store EQ settings. It has a hard-wire bypass so you can A-B the effect of the EQ setting. I'd strongly recommend getting the Behringer measuring mike and using the built-in pink noise generator, RTA and AUTO EQ feature. This will get you in the ball park. Then you can spend the next 10 hours tweaking!! BTW, the 60-band real time analyzer display is driven from the internal fast Fourier tranform circuitry. I've found any spectrum readings below 100 Hz or so to be too high based upon the input source. As someone pointed out earlier, the room is just as important as the loudspeaker. No amount of EQ is going to correct for undamped low frequency room modes or excessive reflections from hard surfaces. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 thanks Lee, I loved the smooth evenness across the entire spectrum with your system and that is why I am playing with it now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Hey guys the bulletin board had me banned again today so sorry for not being able to respond back to anyone. Hope this post works! Am I the only one having this trouble? mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Hey Wolfram I'm sure after I've lived with this unit a little longer I can give better info but this is what I know so far. If you use it between your pre and power amps then it will be able to work for all your sources. I'm mostly interested at this point in being able to do room correction but with this unit and its ability to store different responce curves it would easly allow you to do corrections for any sources you have. The RTA is a Real Time Analyzer and it has the ability to allow you to look at the input signal or output signal to the Behringer EQ as well as if you get the ECM8000 Omnidirectional Measurement Microphone to analyze the room.You can use the Auto EQ feature with the Mic to analyze the room and develope responce curves that will get you started but I can see where you might want to alter these curves based on futher listening or lets say if you had small speakers for example you wouldn't want to boost the bass beyond the speakers mechanical or power limits so your final results will probably need to be tweeked by ear and attention to equipment needs. In the manual they suggest you not use the Auto EQ feature for freq. below approx. 100hz because it can cause inaccuracies during the calculations of the freq. responce which might impair the results achieved with the Auto EQ. The EQ will adj freq. down to 20hz but its best to exempt them from the Auto EQ feature when you run it then adjust these lower bands by Ear and other test sources with the RTA Screen. If you can find one to try I believe you would get use to it fairly quickly. I'm just scratching the surface so far with what this unit is capable of. The RTA is a real eye opener when you see how much of the sound we listen to is in the area of freq. where alot of diffusers and room treatments start loseing effect and the room dimensions are taking control of the sound our speakers are puting out. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Colin ask; (1) 2a3man, what did you learn about your room EQ? Answer: The room seems to cause what appear to be errors of +/- 3.5db and they fall in the area where diffusors and other treatments start loosing effect and the room size is the controling factor. (2) what three things would you tell a newbie about the DEQ2496? Answers: First: the DEQ2496 doesn't seem to have the drawbacks and limitations of the old analog EQs. I can't tell any loss of clarity and because of the Auto EQ and Memory ability you can really begin to understand and start dealing with problems in your system/room fairly quickly. Second: The most important thing to me is that clarity and a feeling for the real emotions of the music have been allowed to come out in my system/room. My ultimate goal for my system/room is to walk in the room set down and be drawn into the music just like a real performance should do.I want to feel like the performers are real flesh and blood people. Third: A good EQ such as this would probably be better money spent than what most of us have fallen into at one time or another which is to constantly be thinking that a different piece of equipment,cables and accessories might cure things when most the time its just doesn't really get at the real weakness in our systems(Our Listening Rooms). (3) what/who did you use for interconnects? make your own? did you get a microphone extension cable? Answer: cables are (2)Hosa XRM-105 and (2) Hosa XRF-105 unbalanced cables to allow me to go from RCA to XLR connections. There might be better cable setups to go with but since I was just trying the unit I went with the basic cables they had and I must say I'm really pleased with the results I'm getting with these. $22 total for four cables. Yes I also bought a 20' Mic cable (4) did you use the FBD yet? Answer: No haven't had time to use anything but the GEQ so far and I believe the FBD is more for feedback control from what I've read on it. It is going to take a while to really fine tune and fully use all this EQ's features to there best effect but thats what has impressed me so much is in just a few hours of use I've gotten such important improvements to me and I really didn't expect that to happen. Colin said: thanks Lee, I loved the smooth evenness across the entire spectrum with your system and that is why I am playing with it now! ------ Colin the above statment says something important because that is exactly something that hit me very quickly which was a more relaxed listening experience with a more natural and smooth responce. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 not to hijack your thread, but if anyone is looking for an eq, i have a rane mq302 up on audiogon. http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?misceqal&1109121386 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Mike, thanks again for your feedback. It is actually this Auto EQ feature which I find interesting. So yes, please continue posting your impressions . BTW: Would the Behringer DSP8024 UltraCurve Pro Digital Processor do the same job? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Hey Wolfram and anyone else interested. I took a pink noise cd and using the RTA I added these adjustments in the GEQ module to what the Auto EQ had already selected above 100hz 100 -3.5db 80 +4db 63 +3.5db 50hz -.5db 40hz -5db Except for a couple of settings the EQ settings are all within a 3.5db window at this time. Some of these adjustments(I'm thinking like the 40hz & 80hz) in these low ranges might be even better if done with the Parametric EQ Module which I will try later when I have more time to run test. I'm telling you this is the best money I've spent on my system in years.I kid you not I'll set there trying to listen to a few songs to see what I think of the EQ settings I'm trying and next thing I know I've listened to two CDs completely through. I can't think of a better compliment to give this EQ. The Clarity and being able to hear into the recordings is something I'm really enjoying. Vocals are everything I could hope for.There is a better since of Depth in the imaging also. All this makes since if this is a real improvement to my system/room I would expect improvements in all these areas since these are all really tied together.Best of all I've not heard anything that I feel would be a draw back to using this EQ. Happy New Year to everyone!!! mike Wolfram the DSP8024 I was told was an earlier model and I noticed there wasn't a price listed on the Behringer webbsite but if you can get one at a good price you might want to check it out. You know I could tell you all day the improvements I'm getting but The only way for you or anyone to know is to try one like I'm doing and see if it works for your problems which from what IMHO believe except for a few really ideal rooms anyone will notice some very worth while improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Mike, I admit that without having such a unit at hand I don't always find it easy to understand those settings and how those units 'work' , but I think I'll start looking around for good deals on such units . Oh, and all the best for 2005. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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