minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 2:16:17 PM xcjago wrote: LOL, alright then. I guess the THD (which gets as high as 30% on some of the Sunfires) is only audible when you are personally listening to the sub. If you've never listened to the Sunfires (like me) then the THD doesn't exist and it's all just a bunch of numbers that don't mean anything. Of course if I go listen to a sunfire now, it won't make any difference since my mind is already biased right? I might actually try to listen for that high THD that doesn't exist. =D p.s. Hey ears, here's some numbers for you to chew on: Velodyne DD-18: 100dB @20hz Servo Setting 8 - 1.85% THD SVS CS-Ultra: 100dB @20hz - 4.93% THD Both from Secrets of HomeTheaterHifi. So you are telling me that you can audibly tell the difference between 1.85% THD and 4.93% THD? And at the same time you tell me there's no difference audibly between 4.93% THD and 30% THD (Sunfires)? Tell me ears, how many SVS subwoofers have you listened to personally? ---------------- it always amazes me how some people can get so caught up in numbers that they seem to ignore other aspects of the review or other reviews that don't agree with the little world that they have created for themselves... you obviously missed the secrets of hometheaterhifi review of the sunfire sub.... and you know what - they don't even mention distortion!!!! It was only a couple of years ago when I first heard the Sunfire subwoofer in prototype form at the CES in Las Vegas. It was moving so much air, the curtains behind it were shaking. Since that time, the Sunfire has been a major success in the marketplace, not so much because it is powerful, but because it is powerful in a SMALL box. Everything about it is unique. The 9" driver (10" if you include the rubber surround and the mounting ring) has a huge excursion for its size. The magnet structure (14 pounds) is also enormous. The amplifier is capable of delivering several thousand watts into the 4 Ohm impedance driver, although the system never demands this much power on a continual basis. In order to achieve large amplifier capability, the power transformer was removed, allowing 120 V rms from the wall direct access to the power capacitors, reducing cost, but improving current delivery. Extremely clever. To increase efficiency, the tracking downconverter from Bob Carver's Sunfire Amplifier was used. The entire package is in an 11" cube. All in all, a totally new approach to subwoofer design. Testamony to the fact that a powerful but small subwoofer is very useful can be seen at any hi-fi show. Many of the manufacturers use this sub in their booths to demonstrate various home theater components. The MK-II version of the Sunfire Subwoofer has an improved driver which allows a little more power to be delivered to it (although 2,700 watts from the amplifier is theoretically possible, the driver would never require it, except perhaps on a short impulse). The amplifier itself is basically the same, and the control panel has the same switches and knobs for volume, variable low-pass (40 Hz - 75 Hz), variable phase (00 - 1800), RCA inputs (L/R), RCA outputs (high-pass), and speaker-level inputs/outputs. For a complete description of the design and principles, see the original review of the first model (click here). That info already having been stored in the archive, let's get right to the performance of the MK-II. We tested the original version out from the wall, like we test other subwoofers, but we decided to test the MK-II where it was designed to be placed, namely in a corner. We faced it sideways, so that the active driver and passive radiator were facing towards the two side walls in the corner. An angle of 450 exists between the surface of each driver and the wall. The sub is so small, it fits very nicely in the corner, with only a few inches of space behind it. Actually, just enough room to reach behind the sub and make any adjustments you want (the power stays on all the time since there is no on/off switch). One of the first things I noticed about the MK-II was that it does not hop around as much as the first version. Obviously, the balance of the passive radiator with the active driver has been improved. Secondly, it plays somewhat louder than the first edition. The really low end (10 Hz - 16 Hz) produced no audible harmonics. However, the built-in limiter attenuates everything below 20 Hz (below 30 Hz in the "Video Contour" switch mode), so that the driver barely moves when input with sine waves below 20 Hz. As you can see, the room response is pretty flat down to 25 Hz, which is truly remarkable for such a small package. We were able to obtain 105.3 dB at 25 Hz (near field) at which limiters began operating. Musically, the MK-II performed very well. I put the MK-II into one of our audio reference systems, which includes a pair of Monitor Audio Studio 20 SE floorstanding speakers. The 20 SEs are marvelous speakers, but they do not put out much SPL below 40 Hz. The MK-II complimented these fine speakers with all types of music, whether it was a Vivaldi Concerto, Beethoven Symphony, or Enya. The lowest note on a piano has a fundamental of about 28 Hz. Electronic music, such as on a typical Enya CD, also has low frequencies that are beyond most floorstanding speakers' capability. The Sunfire put in that last, very important lowest octave. In the home theater, the MK-II did equally well. "True Lies" in DD, and "Apollo 13" in DTS thundered across the room. The "Video Contour" setting truncates the lowest frequencies, so that the sub can concentrate on the region that movies have a lot of, namely at around 40 Hz. However, the sub is so powerful, I preferred to use it in the "Flat" setting, to get everything. I could not hear any boominess at all, regardless of the output. The engineering that went into this product is really amazing. In conclusion, the first version of the Sunfire Subwoofer received laudatory comments from just about everyone. The MK-II has improved on that product by smoothing out the hip hops that the older one took across the floor, and increasing the maximum output. It was a bargain then, and remains not only a bargain now, but one of the most interesting and useful subwoofer innovations to come along in years. John E. Johnson, Jr. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/sunfiresubmk2.html WOW!!!.... it seems that this reviewer didn't notice the high distortion that you are claiming..... LOL here's another review that you must have missed - audio revolution Sunfire's True Subwoofer Sunfire Background Bob Carver, the man behind the success of Phase Linear and Carver Corporation is the mastermind behind this subwoofer-that-could. The son of an engineer and concert pianist, Bob Carver was predestined to become one of the major pioneers of the high end audio industry. He introduced the legendary solid-state Phase Linear 700 amplifier in the mid-seventies, one of the first truly high powered consumer amplifiers. Sunfire Corporation was founded in 1994, Carver's third company, and once again he is breaking new ground. The first product off the blocks was the Sunfire amplifier, which followed in the Carver tradition of big power. The distinctive technical aspect of the Sunfire amplifier is its tracking down converter, or tracking power supply, which monitors the signal, and supplies the necessary power to the output devices as demanded by the signal. According to Carver this design allows the amplifier to deliver more power and current, efficiently. Incorporating the tracking down converter, the Sunfire True Subwoofer has the distinction of being the smallest, most powerful subwoofer in the market today. Sunfire True Subwoofer Design The Sunfire True Subwoofer is housed in an 11" cube, powered by a built-in 2,700 watt amplifier with two 8" drivers on either side of the enclosure. It is rated flat down to 18 Hz, reproducing ultra low bass frequencies at 110 dB SPL. To have deep bass and lot's of it, you must move a tremendous amount of air. Air movement is measured in cubic inches. The more cubic inches of air that is displaced the more bass you can produce. For wall rattling and floor shaking bass you need to displace at least 135 inches of air. Sunfire's push-pull design allows the Sunfire True Subwoofer to displace 251 cubic inches of air! For comparison, your average fifteen inch woofer only displaces 66 cubic inches of air. The dual driver design also cancels the internal forces of such a powerful amp, preventing it from hopping around the room. If you want all the details on how the Sunfire True Subwoofer achieves what seems to be the impossible at first glance, take a look at their white paper which can be found at http://www.sunfire.com. The Sunfire crossover is variable from 40 Hz to 120 Hz with a slope of 36 dB per octave. There is an input level control with continuously adjustable phase and a passive 70 Hz, 6 dB per octave hi-pass line level output for satellite loudspeakers. The input coupling is optical and accepts standard and high level inputs. Listening Test Deep solid bass in today's blockbuster movie soundtracks is essential. While there are plenty of subwoofers out there, few are capable of performing like Sunfire's True Subwoofer. Rated at 2,700 watts the Sunfire's can deliver all the way down to 18 Hz! You want, bone crushing, heart stopping, IMPACT? Than the Sunfire True Subwoofer is for you. During the key sequence at the top of GoldenEye, a lone gunman fires on Bond, and you can feel the vibration of the bullet's release from his weapon. In the following car chase sequence, these subs add some serious bite to the spirited, hip-hop style soundtrack. It's like having movie theater quality and depth with these two Sunfires in my system. Music cues are more dramatic, explosions rattle the floorboards and every little jolt or small noise is clearly, cleanly and naturally heard... and felt. Listening to music with these Sunfire's is a real joy. On Paula Cole's Tiger from This Fire the extreme low bass tones on this track are reproduced without distortion and the attack of each note is easily and remarkably distinguishable. Dance clubs would sound a whole lot better with a few of these Sunfires. They can accurately deliver articulate and precise timing of fast tempo mid-bass keyboards common to dance and hip-hop tracks. If you thought dance/pop tracks have just this dull roar down at the low end you'll be surprised and exhilarated by the precision triplets on Electronic's Second Nature from their last CD Raise the Pressure. If you want to ROCK, put on the less popular track, Ruins, from Melissa Etheridge's Yes I Am CD and Crank it!!! It will never distort, crackle or get muddy at the low end. Drums have that live shotgun blast sound, that hits you right in the stomach and kick you know what. For those of you who prefer the subtle to the raucous, the combination acoustic and electric guitars on Acoustic Alchemy's upbeat and fast-paced Casino from Arcanum pop with presence and depth. The bass guitar is up front, each note distinct and articulate throughout the entire frequency range of the instrument. Mid-bass is plucky and powerful. Bass notes on Tori Amos' piano in Cornflake Girl from Under the Pink, have that nice long sustain, for a very live and natural tone. Are you getting my point, yet? Yes, I love these Sunfires and I recommend them highly. No matter what kind of music or movie you enjoy, you'll appreciate it that much more with a Sunfire sub (or two) in your system. A couple words of advice, set the input level on the back panel on a low setting and turn it up gradually as you start testing it in your system. A little signal goes a long way with these subs. Second, I hope you have a familiarity of subs and how they are patched into a system because the owner's manual doesn't provide any detailed hook-up diagrams or explanations on the various ways a subwoofer can be interfaced into either a stereo or multi-channel sound system. Publisher's Note: It is easy to forget how small this sub is when auditioning it. The Sunfire Sub is significant to the world of audio and theater in that it brings low bass to rooms where you physically can not fit a pair of 18 inch monster subs. And for $1250.00 each (US dollars) bravo Sunfire! -- Jerry Del Colliano http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/sunfiresub/index.html mmmmmm..... this guy "missed" the horrible distortion level as well..... LOL and James Johnson from secrets also reviewed a different model sunfire sub at a different time... When Bob Carver introduced his Sunfire Subwoofer a couple of years ago, other companies quickly jumped on the wagon with their own versions of big bass in a small box. The 10" long throw active driver with a 10" passive radiator, coupled with a massive power amplifier, changed the way we look at subwoofers. No longer was it necessary to buy a large box to have deep, powerful bass. We, along with a lot of other people, have been very happy with these subs, and the Sunfire Subwoofer remains the "King of Clever". It was only a matter of time - and a short time at that - for us to see a larger version to come from Sunfire, and it has arrived. The Sunfire Subwoofer Signature is a 12" model. It has two drivers, one of which is active, and the other being a passive radiator. The same powerful amplifier is there, with the Tracking Downconverter to maintain the rail voltage at 6 Volts above the signal demand voltage. The amplifier is rated at 2,700 watts rms. That amount of output is possible since the incoming 120 volts AC is directly coupled to the power supply capacitors after passing through the full wave rectifier diodes (no transformer). With such a high voltage, and a 4 Ohm driver, enough current could be drawn to result in the 2,700 watts. Even this industrial strength driver would not take that kind of power very long, however, so just a few hundred watts are required to get it to full output levels. But even so, the amplifier is capable of much more, and to get lots of deep bass from a relatively small box, it takes three things: A driver capable of long excursion, a powerful amplifier, and most importantly, good engineering design. All three of these factors have been realized with the Sunfire Subwoofers. I measured 1.5 inches of excursion, peak to peak, with the Sunfire Signature Sub (active driver), and that is a heck of a lot for a 12" driver. Bob used the same tracking downconverter from his Sunfire Stereo Amplifier in the amp for his subwoofers, providing very efficient, and very high, power. So, that takes care of two factors. The third is engineering, and Bob Carver has always been very good at this. First, comes the mathematics and head scratching. After that comes the fun part . . . fiddling around in the laboratory with various designs. You get yourself a tall soda from BK or whatever, and you try things out. The passive radiator is no simple item either. The weight on the back is critical to good performance. A little solder (for weight) is added to the back, bit by bit, until the active - passive coordination is matched just right. Both drivers on the Sunfire have flat membranes on the front, rather than being shaped like a cone. This makes the driver act more like a piston. A huge rubber surround tops off the unique appearance to the drivers. They are both very stiff out of the box, and I ran the subwoofer with intense low frequency sinewaves (10 Hz - 100 Hz) to break them in. The rear panel of the Signature is like the 10" version, except that Bob's signature is there. A red LED indicates power on/standby. There is no on/off switch, since the amplifier is so efficient. Rotary controls include volume, crossover frequency (30 Hz - 100 Hz), and phase (continuously adjustable between 00 and 1800). This is a rare example of a subwoofer with a 30 Hz low pass selection. There are four gold plated RCA jacks, two for line-level input, and two for high pass (80 Hz) line-level output (to drive amplifiers for satellite speakers). There is also a pair (right and left) of speaker-level inputs. A "Flat/Video Contour" toggle lets you roll off frequencies below 40 Hz if you wish (40 Hz is about the limit of many films), but this subwoofer does so well with intense sound effects at all low frequencies, I kept it set to "Flat". The Sunfires are designed to be placed in corners. This way, when the signal passes from the active driver to the passive radiator (at about 20 Hz and lower), the sound continues to be corner loaded, rather than change output directions from one side of the room towards the other. It keeps the frequency response flat, rather than simply making the bass louder. When I ran the Signature with some sinewaves, I noticed that there were no audible harmonics at testing frequencies of 16 Hz or 20 Hz, even at full output. This is testimony to the engineering. For a subwoofer that moves this much air to have no audible harmonics is nothing short of amazing. Bass harmonics are not as irritating as harmonics from midrange and high frequencies. In fact, some people like bass harmonics because they make the bass louder. I prefer clean accurate bass, even with action films where explosions have all sorts of frequencies rumbling away, and I found the Sunfire gave me lots of what I like with films such as "Die Hard" and "Tomorrow Never Dies". Especially with music though, clean bass is essential. Playing Natalie Cole's "Unforgettable" with the Sunfire resulted in the bass sounding clean and natural, each note blending with the music, rather than like a bass drum that simply booms with the notes. Accelerometer chips are used on some subwoofer designs to reduce harmonics. The chips are mounted on the driver, and when the driver moves, the chip generates current which is fed back to a comparator, the difference between the original signal and the feedback is inverted, and passed through the amplifier. Another type of feedback is current sensing feedback. Speaker drivers are motors, but they are also generators. When the voice coil moves in the magnetic field, it generates voltage and current. This is called the "Back EMF". Since the drivers are producing distortion along with the original signal, the back EMF is not simply proportional to the input voltage, but varies from it according to the distorted movement of the cone. These variations are detected, separated from the waveform of the input voltage, inverted, and fed back into the amplifier. Accelerometer feedback systems detect changes in velocity (acceleration), while the current sensing feedback systems detect movement in general. But no feedback system will work if the driver has a large amount of inherent harmonic distortion. The Sunfire uses current sensing feedback, but the best design is one where you don't have a lot of harmonic distortion to start with, and the feedback just helps to reduce the low inherent distortion even further. That is obviously what is happening here with the Sunfire Subwoofer design. I found a maximum output of 117.3 dB at 31.5 Hz (the highest we have ever measured in any subwoofer!), and 107.8 dB at 25 Hz, at 1 meter, using one Sunfire in a corner. This is excellent (astonishing, actually). 100 dB is plenty for bass, and the Sunfire can deliver this pretty much at all frequencies down to 20 Hz. Two Sunfires resulted in a 6 dB gain when they were side-by-side. For stereo subwoofer use, of course, the subs have to be separated. The continuously adjustable phase control on the Sunfire is very useful here, as I found about a 3 dB variation when using two Sunfire Signatures, and adjusting the phase control up and down. Most subwoofers have a switch for 00 or 1800, but for two subs, the setting might be 600, 1200, or some other number, for the best bass. Also, it depends on the frequency (because phase shift varies as you move away from the selected frequency), so by having an adjustable phase control, you can set the phase for the frequency that most suits your needs, such as 40 Hz, or whatever. For subs with the 00 or 1800 switch, it is a matter of moving the subs around the room to get the best result. Just because one Sunfire can produce very loud bass is no reason to have only one subwoofer. Although deep bass is non directional, stereo subs still give the user a three dimensional experience. It may be the tactile senses that are responsible for this. Whatever the reason, stereo subs do work, and with two subs, each one has to expend less effort. In summary, Bob Carver scores again with this high performance subwoofer. The 13" cube will deliver great bass in places no other subwoofer will fit. Two are better than one (the same with all subwoofers), but one Sunfire Subwoofer Signature is certainly enough for just about any home theater. It will shake the rafters with movies, and soothe the savage beast with Beethoven. Highly recommended! John E. Johnson, Jr. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_3/sunfiresubwoofersignature.html and another from smr home theater.... 'Sunfire - A True Sub-woofer' I got a phone call while at work today. It was Richard from my local stereo shop. "I know you're probably busy, but I had to tell you that Bob Carver is here!". At first, what I was doing seemed real important, but after a moment's thought, there wasn't anything that I was doing that someone else couldn't do. They would most likely do it better too! So I was off like a shot. I entered the store and heard Richard calling me, so I headed toward 'the voice'. I went into the room where I instantly recognized Bob Carver standing and listening next to a man I did not recognize. Hooked up and playing through a pair of B&W 805's was the Sunfire amp, the source being a California Audio Labs CD player. Now, I have heard the 805s about a hundred times, and I knew what I was hearing was no non-augmented effort! I kept looking around but couldn't find the sub! Well, finally, there it was, a small 11inch square box in the corner! It kinda looked like someone had stashed my first power amp in the corner (those familiar with the Carver line know which one!). Had I not been familiar with what I was looking for, I would have let my eyes pass by this little box and continue on looking for the source of the, quite literally, wall, floor, and chair shaking bass. Oh, as it turns out, the other man standing next to Mr. Carver was none other than the very congenial Mr. Joseph M. Cierniak of the Sensible Sound. It seems that Mr. Cierniak was doing the very first review of the little Sunfire Subwoofer. You may want to check it out! What followed was a two and a half hour demo of this little monster. It is a monster too. It honestly has a growl like I have never heard before. Now, I have what I think are a couple of excellent subwoofers in my M&K MX100, and my Velodyne ULD 15. But I would trade both in for what I saw and heard. I have never felt a room pressurized by bass the way I felt it today. True, much of the demo was performed with the sub turned up much too loud in relation to the satellites, and the whole system was turned up louder than what I'm used to, but the power of this little sub must be experienced to be appreciated. I was continually struck by one thing. It never got in the way of the music. With both of my subs, I'm restricted as to how loud I can turn up the volume by the fact that sooner or later, the sound of the sub starts mucking up the midrange. I start hearing a 'howling' if you will. Not with this little sub. The louder the sub was turned, the more disjointed the bass became from the music, but however disjointed the two became the midrange remained almost completely undisturbed. The bass was solid and powerful beyond compare, and the little B&W's sounded as clean as can be. The reason for this seemed to be the 36dB/octave filter Bob uses. The frequency is variable, and I believe they had it set around 40Hz. You know, I say it was disjointed, but that's really not accurate, lets just replace that word with 'unnatural'. I think it was my own preconception of what the music was supposed to sound like that makes me disjoin it. When we pulled in the reins on the sub, and put on some music, there wasn't much to say. It was solid bass, with excellent texture and detail, and never a sense of strain. We were throwing everything we could find at it too. When I walked in, they were playing a pipe organ recording. With the rotation of the level control on the back of the sub, we had instant 'disco' level bass with slam galore! It was Amazing. "No," reminded Mr. Cierniak, "That was his speaker!". Then something fun happened. The seed for the thought seemed to have been planted the night before. One of the store employees was sent in search of the tallest tiptoes/spikes he could find. What they wanted to do was turn this little 40 some pound box 90 degrees so that instead of the woofers firing front and back, they were firing up and down. Now, the excursions of these woofers is 2.4 inches, and the surround already looks like the inner tube from a bicycle glued to the front of the woofer. So a very tall spike was needed to prevent the driver from slapping the ground! Once found and fastened to the box, it was turned on its face. Once again, amazing. Without the aid of measurements, the acoustic output of the box seemed to have been cut back somewhat, but the floor was shaking beyond belief. At one point, with a Michael Jackson cut playing, I actually had to walk over to the CAL player, pick it up from the rack and suspend it in my arms in order to keep it from mistracking! And it was, up until I did that, mistracking continuously! We all agreed that this was something that would be great for home theater. We had all heard T-Rex coming up from over the trees, but now it would be felt! There was but one problem. At times, this thing was actually jumping up off the ground! When it did, it wasn't hard to hear the effect on the bass, and this wasn't good! So Bob said that he was going to look into ways to couple this thing to the floor. We all agreed that bolting it to the floor would work, but probably wouldn't pass the WAF test. Perhaps a lead filled frame which could be attached to the box would work. Well, that's for Bob to figure out if he wishes. Now, the finer points on the sub's performance would have to be observed over a longer period of time, and in a more familiar environment. But I had a couple questions answered for me today. 1) Is a little box with two 8 inch woofers and a 2700 watt amp really capable of moving as much air as my 400 watt/15 inch Velodyne? You'd better believe it, and more. 2) Is there a better home theater sub available on the market? I really don't think so. This thing was so clean, powerful, and with such a steep low pass filter, it would be my pick of subs today. I haven't even talked about how small (albeit kinda heavy at around 40 lbs) it is, making it easy as pie to move around to experiment with positioning! You could place it in one location for music, then in another for theater (accuracy Vs. raw power). Check it out! Good luck and listening, John R. Potis Jr. http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Reviews/Sunfire/index.html i could keep quoting great reviews of the sunfire subs in which the reviewer never even mentions distortion..... it seems that the "high distortion" level of sunfire subs is not as audible as tom and mark might have indicated in their measurements.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Review of the sunfire "2) Is there a better home theater sub available on the market? I really don't think so." -John R. Potis Jr. _____________________ Wow. That's a statement. Nothing wrong with the Sunfires, but if he thinks that's the best home theater sub available then he loses credibility in my book. Sunfires are outstanding for their size, but if you want to use more floor space then they can be easily outdone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Yes, yes, I have already read those reviews. They don't mention THD because they didn't measure it. Also, not everyone knows what THD sounds like. Some people mistake THD for more bass. Anyways, I'll just say this: The Sunfire's are very nice subwoofers and you probably won't find anything better for the size. However, you will be paying more money and there's a good chance that your THD will be higher. But even then, you may actually like that kind of sound or you may not even notice it at all. OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 3:54:19 PM xcjago wrote: Yes, yes, I have already read those reviews. They don't mention THD because they didn't measure it. Also, not everyone knows what THD sounds like. Some people mistake THD for more bass. Anyways, I'll just say this: The Sunfire's are very nice subwoofers and you probably won't find anything better for the size. However, you will be paying more money and there's a good chance that your THD will be higher. But even then, you may actually like that kind of sound or you may not even notice it at all. OK? ---------------- right.... YOU have golden ears.... and can hear bass much better than people who are paid to review speakers and other equipment for a living.... LOL so.... even though we get to pay more money.... the sub is distorting and causing people with less discerning ears to hear more bass.... and people like us might actually prefer that "kind of sound"... LOL and all of these comments are coming from someone who has never even heard a sunfire subwoofer!!!!! ROTFLMAO please keep posting - your comments just keep getting more and more humorous!!!! so - do you review speakers and/or subwoofers for a living or anything even remotely related to music or do you just read speaker reviews and test results for the basis of your "golden ears" and experience which places you above us mere mortals?????? please share with us some of your vast experience in your 22 years of life!!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 3:54:10 PM CAS wrote: Review of the sunfire "2) Is there a better home theater sub available on the market? I really don't think so." -John R. Potis Jr. _____________________ Wow. That's a statement. Nothing wrong with the Sunfires, but if he thinks that's the best home theater sub available then he loses credibility in my book. Sunfires are outstanding for their size, but if you want to use more floor space then they can be easily outdone. ---------------- if you go to the link, you will see that the review was done in 1996.... it might have been an accurate assessment at the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoker Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 That was going to be my point. The time the Sunfire was reviewed it may have been one of the best. I know when I bought mine a lot of the reviews were back in the late 90's and were for the Mark-II and the IV were out. Now I'm not a subwoofer expert and have only owned three and listen to about 6 extensively. As far as the Sunfire goes it is a very powerfull sub. Are there ones better and cheaper? more then likeley. Is there one better and cheaper and have the same footprint? probalbe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 4:04:13 PM minn_male42 wrote: ---------------- On 2/17/2005 3:54:19 PM xcjago wrote: Yes, yes, I have already read those reviews. They don't mention THD because they didn't measure it. Also, not everyone knows what THD sounds like. Some people mistake THD for more bass. Anyways, I'll just say this: The Sunfire's are very nice subwoofers and you probably won't find anything better for the size. However, you will be paying more money and there's a good chance that your THD will be higher. But even then, you may actually like that kind of sound or you may not even notice it at all. OK? ---------------- right.... YOU have golden ears.... and can hear bass much better than people who are paid to review speakers and other equipment for a living.... LOL so.... even though we get to pay more money.... the sub is distorting and causing people with less discerning ears to hear more bass.... and people like us might actually prefer that "kind of sound"... LOL and all of these comments are coming from someone who has never even heard a sunfire subwoofer!!!!! ROTFLMAO please keep posting - your comments just keep getting more and more humorous!!!! so - do you review speakers and/or subwoofers for a living or anything even remotely related to music or do you just read speaker reviews and test results for the basis of your "golden ears" and experience which places you above us mere mortals?????? please share with us some of your vast experience in your 22 years of life!!! LOL ---------------- I never said my ears were better than theirs. Everything I posted comes from "expert" reviewers just like the ones you posted. You are simply putting your "experts" up against mine. And what does my age have to do with anthing? That is called an ad-hominem attack and is a logical fallacy. The SVS PB12-Ultra/2 can put out 109dB at 20hz and 123dB at 40hz measured OUTDOORS with less than 10% THD. Moving indoors would result in 115dB at 20hz and 129dB at 40hz all at less than 10% THD. If you think any sunfire can match this then you are sorely mistaken. link: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201221&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 4:31:07 PM xcjago wrote: I never said my ears were better than theirs. Everything I posted comes from "expert" reviewers just like the ones you posted. You are simply putting your "experts" up against mine. And what does my age have to do with anthing? That is called an ad-hominem attack and is a logical fallacy. The SVS PB12-Ultra/2 can put out 109dB at 20hz and 123dB at 40hz measured OUTDOORS with less than 10% THD. Moving indoors would result in 115dB at 20hz and 129dB at 40hz all at less than 10% THD. If you think any sunfire can match this then you are sorely mistaken. link: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201221&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=1 ---------------- you need to get out more and do some serious listening... i was again asking about your personal experience - hoping that you might bring some credibility to your claims with some personal background.... i.e. selling subwoofers for a living, working at a subwoofer manufacturer, professional musician, home theater installer, etc.... ANYTHING that might make a conversation with you more interesting.... but sadly that is not the case.... just another SVS fanboy quoting numbers... you should post over on AVS forum - you'll fit right in there with the rest of the SVS and av123 fanboys..... in case you (or anyone) was wondering.... i am not an expert by any means, but i have owned 4 different subs over the years and seriously auditioned many more in the process... as well as having a music degree and about 4 years working selling professional audio equipment... my humble list of equipment is listed in my profile... and your previous post DID indicate that you had better hearing than others because YOU could hear the distortion that the reviewers i quoted could not.. and it was ok that some people "like that kind of sound" was another slap in the face that you were better because you only liked undistorted sound.... Yes, yes, I have already read those reviews. They don't mention THD because they didn't measure it. Also, not everyone knows what THD sounds like. Some people mistake THD for more bass. Anyways, I'll just say this: The Sunfire's are very nice subwoofers and you probably won't find anything better for the size. However, you will be paying more money and there's a good chance that your THD will be higher. But even then, you may actually like that kind of sound or you may not even notice it at all. OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoker Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Here it is from Sunfires owners manual on Total Harmonic Distortion " Typically less then 1/10 of the fundamental between 18 to 80 Hz." I think that explains it perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Graduating this summer with a bachelors in computer science. Audio is my hobby. Only two real subwoofers I have owned are the HSU STF-2 and now the SVS PB10. I've listened to numerous subs from klipsch, velodyone, b&w, martin logan, and others. p.s. I suggest upgrading your subwoofer. The CT-150 measures -20dB by 20hz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/16/2005 11:38:01 AM xcjago wrote: True I have not heard the Sunfire subs, however, I know that 10% and higher THD is audible. That is why Tom Nusaine uses it as a limit in his subwoofer testing. And yes I know all about the Velodyne DD subs. They are very nice subwoofers with amazingly low THD. ---------------- If you have not hear one stop acting like a parrot and repeating what Tom N said or Paul Z said.People here want a bit of personal experience,not numbers thrown at them. My point is YOU HAVE NO SERIOUS EXPERIENCE with a Sunfire and should not give FABRICATED opinions. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 5:51:37 PM TheEAR wrote: ---------------- On 2/16/2005 11:38:01 AM xcjago wrote: True I have not heard the Sunfire subs, however, I know that 10% and higher THD is audible. That is why Tom Nusaine uses it as a limit in his subwoofer testing. And yes I know all about the Velodyne DD subs. They are very nice subwoofers with amazingly low THD. ---------------- If you have not hear one stop acting like a parrot and repeating what Tom N said or Paul Z said.People here want a bit of personal experience,not numbers thrown at them. My point is YOU HAVE NO SERIOUS EXPERIENCE with a Sunfire and should not give FABRICATED opinions. Thank you ---------------- Perhaps you should learn what an opinion is. Giving numbers like SPL and THD are factual figures not opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 And you still have not answered my question ears. How many SVSubwoofers have you had in your house to listen to??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 4:09:15 PM minn_male42 wrote: ---------------- On 2/17/2005 3:54:10 PM CAS wrote: Review of the sunfire "2) Is there a better home theater sub available on the market? I really don't think so." -John R. Potis Jr. _____________________ Wow. That's a statement. Nothing wrong with the Sunfires, but if he thinks that's the best home theater sub available then he loses credibility in my book. Sunfires are outstanding for their size, but if you want to use more floor space then they can be easily outdone. ---------------- if you go to the link, you will see that the review was done in 1996.... it might have been an accurate assessment at the time... ---------------- I had no idea those have been out for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 5:06:28 PM xcjago wrote: Graduating this summer with a bachelors in computer science. Audio is my hobby. Only two real subwoofers I have owned are the HSU STF-2 and now the SVS PB10. I've listened to numerous subs from klipsch, velodyone, b&w, martin logan, and others. p.s. I suggest upgrading your subwoofer. The CT-150 measures -20dB by 20hz. ---------------- i sure hope that they teach you to use more than one source for your research papers in college - because it's pretty obvious you didn't do to much research on my velodyne sub...... you missed the following review... (the one that comes up first in a google search) http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/velodyne-ct-150-subwoofer.html Product Review - Velodyne CT-150 15" Powered Subwoofer - July, 1999 John E. Johnson, Jr. 15" Forward Firing Driver, 6 Pound Magnet 250 Watt rms A/B Amplifier, Line-Level and Speaker-Level Inputs and Outputs MFR: 23 Hz - 120 Hz ± 3 dB High Pass : 80 Hz or 100 Hz, 6 dB per Octave Low Pass : 40 Hz - 120 Hz, 12 dB per Octave Variable Phase Control, 0 0 - 180 0 Size : 21"H x 18 1/2"W x 20"D Weight : 72 Pounds MSRP : $799 USA Some years ago, when I first considered buying a subwoofer, and I looked at Velodyne, they only had a few models to choose from. They were downward firing and expensive (but worth it). That was before home theater was such a big thing. Now that just about everyone is interested in watching movies at home, and we all want to reproduce the experience we have at the commercial theater more or less (excluding the sticky floors), a subwoofer is critical to our audio system. However, not everyone can afford, or even wants to spend mucho bucks, on a sub. Velodyne has taken their time about coming up with mass market products, in part because they have long been one of the most highly respected names in the subwoofer business. Their latest series, called CT, represents quite an achievement. The CT series has four models : CT-80, CT-100, CT-120, and CT-150, with the respective drivers 8", 10", 12", and 15" in diameter. The CT-150 has a 250 watt rms A/B amplifier with current sensing feedback from the driver voice coil (2 1/2"). Velodyne's top of the line subs use a solid state accelerometer mounted on the voice coil. Current sensing feedback is less accurate than servos, but it is also less expensive. Current sensing feedback works by knowing what the current is that is being fed to the voice coil by the amplifier, and sensing what the current is that is being generated by the actual voice coil movement within the gap of the magnet. The difference in the waveforms between the amplifier feed and the voice coil generated current (this difference represents distortion) is inverted and fed back into the amplifier. This cancels out much of the distortion produced by inaccurate movement of the driver cone. The CT-150 is the only member of the CT series that has current sensing feedback. It is also the only one that has a variable phase control. The others have selectable 0 0 or 180 0 . One should remember that phase adjustment really only matches the phase of the sub and the main speakers at one frequency, because the phase alignment changes as one moves away from the selected frequency (called phase shift). However, variable phase can be helpful, and I found the most pleasing sound when the phase was set around 60 0 . The rear panel of the CT-150 looks more like a $2,000 subwoofer than a $799 one. It has just about every type of control that one could want. Starting on the left, there is a rotary volume control, followed by an auto/on toggle switch (auto-on sensor for when you don't want to reach behind the sub and turn it on manually), then a rotary phase control, video/audio toggle (alters the response curve for use with movies or music), variable low-pass rotary control (40 Hz - 120 Hz), and low-pass crossover in/out toggle (for use with receivers and preamps that control the low-pass output into subwoofers). Below the rotary controls is a slider switch for selecting the high-pass frequency (either 80 Hz or 100 Hz). At the bottom of the panel are speaker binding posts for speaker-level inputs and outputs. These posts have a plastic insert to meet the European electrical code. I imagine that a good pair of needle nosed pliers could be used to remove them for American use with banana plugs. In between the binding posts are RCA jacks for line-level input and output (the speaker-level and line-level outputs are high-passed at the slider switch selected frequency). The panel is made of brushed aluminum, and the enclosure covering is a matte black vinyl. The vinyl is on all sides, including the bottom. Nice touches from a fine company. Four rubber feet are included if you want to stick them on. If you are putting the sub on a rug, the feet are not necessary. On wooden floors, or other types of hard surfaces, use the feet. I tested the CT-150 in our reference audio system, which includes an Audio Alchemy CD package, Audio Electronic AE-1 Tube Preamplifier, White Audio B-80 Monoblock Power Amplifiers, Monitor Audio Studio 20 SE Tower Speakers, and Nordost Cables. I also put the CT-150 into my home theater reference system, which includes a Yamaha DVD-S700 DVD Player, Yamaha DSP-A1 Preamp/Amplifier, Krix Speakers, and Nordost Cables. One of the problems with all subwoofers is blending the bass with the sound from the other speakers. Although a variable phase control is not a panacea, it does help. I played some of my favorite CDs, including Natalie Cole's "Unforgettable", and adjusted the phase setting until it sounded "right". SPL meters are fine, but nothing beats the ears for the most significant test. As with other subwoofers, I found a low-pass setting of 60 Hz desirable. I have listened to these CDs so many times, I know exactly when a subwoofer or main speaker is adding chesty harmonics. What surprised me most about this subwoofer is that it is so clean and tight. No boominess or chestiness (two things that are extremely irritating to hear). Each deep note is musically distinguishable. There is also an uncanny amount of dynamics, meaning that it has punch (responds quickly), which is unusual in a 15" driver. This product has obviously been very, very carefully engineered. The slot loading (like a "port" but with a rectangular shape instead of being round) plays a big role here. The wind coming out of the slot moved the tassles on my rug several feet away. 250 watts of amplification sounds like a big number, but at a time when companies are putting class D amplifiers (digital switching amplifiers) in subs, with 400 watts, 1000 watts, and more, a 250 watt amp is modest. However, it appears to be sufficient here, and, at $799, appropriate. The CT-150 has clipping protection circuitry that prevents the amplifier from being overdriven, and this feature seemed to work nicely. Although I could hear the amplifier reaching its limits with the sine waves, and the heat sinks got very warm, I could not get the driver to "pop" like I can with amplifiers that don't have clipping protection. In the long run, clip protection will make life easier on the driver. In the home theater lab, the CT-150 was more than apt. Bass is kind of a funny thing in audio. There can be lots of distortion, and some people will like it. Nothing wrong with that. Having fun and feeling good is what it's all about. However, the CT-150 is not one of those kinds of subwoofers. It produces powerful deep bass, but because harmonics are not a big part of its profile, there can be sounds that you feel and not hear, as opposed to hearing bass all the time with subs that produce lots of harmonics. For example, the lunch scene in "Jurassic Park" has some extremely deep sounds. With a subwoofer that has significant harmonics, the crunching sounds will seem more powerful than they actually are. I prefer clean bass, which is what the CT-150 produces. It won't play as loud as the Velodyne HGS-18, but within its range of power, the CT-150 sounds like a much more expensive product. Plus, it has all the features on the amplifier panel that just about any subwoofer possibly could. I obtained 105.6 dB maximum output at 31.5 Hz, before clipping, measured at 1 meter. As you can see, the response is pretty flat in the 25 Hz - 100 Hz range. The 125 Hz dip at 4 meters is a room effect. In summary, the Velodyne CT-150 is a killer product. It sets new standards in the $500 - $1,000 range subwoofers, and is a definite must on the list of items to audition. not too bad for a subwoofer from 1999....and with some simple room treatments, the frequency response can easily be made flatter... and considering i got it for $250 at a local pawn shop, it is an excellent performer.... and once again you are making comments about a sub that you have never heard..... at least your consistent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 LOL, that's actually the review I was looking at. If you LOOK at the graph you can see that it is down about 5dB by 25hz. By 20hz it's down another 10dB. So let's say -15dB by 20hz, not 20dB. Maybe you should get your eyes checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 7:08:15 PM xcjago wrote: LOL, that's actually the review I was looking at. If you LOOK at the graph you can see that it is down about 5dB by 25hz. By 20hz it's down another 10dB. So let's say -15dB by 20hz, not 20dB. Maybe you should get you eyes checked. ---------------- and once again you focus only on one part of the review.... you must have missed all the positive comments that the reviewer posted.... i went up and high-lighted them for you...... your obsession with numbers is really pretty sad...... and you have absolutely no clue as to what the frequency response of the sub is in my room with my room treatments and room placement..... i could post just like you and make comments about your entry level sub.... but i would be doing that without ever hearing it - something that i don't do you really are clueless aren't you...... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Oh ya I'm sorry. You must have those magic carpet rugs that give you a 15dB boost at 20hz. LOL, I'm done with this. I care about the numbers and you obviously don't, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 7:21:21 PM xcjago wrote: Oh ya I'm sorry. You must have those magic carpet rugs that give you a 15dB boost at 20hz. LOL, I'm done with this. I care about the numbers and you obviously don't, end of story. ---------------- i care about the sound..... i don't need a frequency response chart to try to convince me that i made a good buy.... so many of the buyers of internet brands are constantly harping about their purchases - why they are sooooooo good and how the speakers they bought are soooooooooo much better than anything else out there...... why everything else is sooooooo much inferior to what they bought... maybe part of it is the fact that SVS and av123 (for example) are a very small percentage of the subs and speakers sold in the entire market... unless you read an audio forum, you might never hear of either brand.... our 22 year old friend here fits the pattern exactly.... SVS is in the title of the thread and he jumps in making negative comments about the sunfire sub - EVEN THOUGH HE HAS NEVER HEARD IT!!... he keeps posting like he actually knows something when all he is doing is regurgitating comments that he read somewhere online.... all the time ignoring all the positive comments in the same reviews... there is a reason why the terms "svs fanboy" and "av123 fanboy" are well known on most audio forums..... btw - if he knew anything at all about sub performance and frequency response, he would realize that room placement and more specifically corner placement can change the response curve... placement combined with room treatments can radically change the frequency response of the sub..... and i haven't even mentioned using a parametric eq to flatten the response even furthur..... i guess that wasn't in the links that he was cutting and pasting!!! well...he's only 22.... he might learn.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I wasn't going to say anymore but you keep spreading lies. I never said SVS was soooooo much better. I said the Sunfire will have more THD and it does. That's a fact. I'm sorry you can't take any negative comments about Sunfire or about your sub. And there you go again with age thing. I think you are the one who needs to grow up. I DO know that placement can affect subwoofer performance. In fact I have my sub placed in the corner of the room since it gives me the best response. How do you know that the CT-150 in that review was not placed in a corner as well? The reviewer doesn't say where he put it, however, it seems likely that he would spend some time to place it where it sounds best. btw, I'll be 24 in two months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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