JBryan Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Yeah... Thanks for the info. Its very comforting to know that there's an exceptionally well-designed horn that seems to better the formitable Khorn bass bin... and by most reports will never be made available for home use. "....and now for your punishment regarding considering anything other than compression drivers for the midrange band-pass, bailiff, whack his ...!" Sorry Dman. I didn't realize I had crossed a line.. besides, there doesn't appear to be a compression driver in either of the bass bins you've so eloquently described so repeating the design on the mid-horn may be synergetic - how bad could that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 thanks Dee! interesting reading. looks like an improvment over the original k-horn bass bin, not only in high freqeuncy extension but lower distortion as well. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 ---------------- On 3/8/2005 11:43:49 PM JBryan wrote: Sorry Dman. I didn't realize I had crossed a line.. besides, there doesn't appear to be a compression driver in either of the bass bins you've so eloquently described so repeating the design on the mid-horn may be synergetic - how bad could that be? ---------------- Yeah, ok, we are using cone drivers for the bass horns, aren't we?! {edit} I have it in the back of my mind that cones in general are basically bad and should be avoided whenever possible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 I stated something earlier about the expansion on the Jubilee being completely horizontal, that's not quite true. The expansion at the throat is vertical in orientation, it changes to horizontal expansion after the first fold for the remainder of the horn path. Just like the La Scala and Belle. This change is somewhat the same as twisting the waveform, but the important part to remember is that it is occurring between the throat and the first fold, where the waveform is the smallest, and if you are going to do anything to the proportions of the channels, it is best to do it as close to the throat as possible. I took this approach in my design, also. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 10, 2005 Author Share Posted March 10, 2005 any drawing of Jubilee chamber with three cones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 ---------------- On 3/10/2005 10:26:43 PM Colin wrote: any drawing of Jubilee chamber with three cones? ---------------- Between this and the Preparing for Jubilee build thread... I too was hoping that some drawings or exact dimensions would surface. I have a general idea of the foldings of the Jubilee... but not as clear as those provided by the drawings of the Khorn or Belle. I'm intrigued, as my understanding of PWK was that he always tried to maximize the cost/performance ratio of his designs. The Klipschorns are still fantastic performers at their price point... but it means a lot that "he" felt that the additional cost of the Jubilee over the Khorn was worth it. Remember that this is the same guy who brought us Zip cords and BS buttons... I say we convince DM to not reinvent the wheel and start over and build Jubilee this time... that way we could get plans. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 ---------------- On 3/11/2005 2:59:17 AM formica wrote: I say we convince DM to not reinvent the wheel and start over and build Jubilee this time... that way we could get plans. Rob ---------------- Rob, you're too late! I reinvented the wheel - EVEN MORE! Basically, changed the splay angles of my current design like the Jubilee. There ya go, a hybrid (or is it just another bastard)is born. However, I am not comfortable with giving up simplicity for a couple of hundred more Hz at the crossover. I am not convinced... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 ---------------- On 3/10/2005 10:26:43 PM Colin wrote: any drawing of Jubilee chamber with three cones? ---------------- Colin, No drawing, but you are tracking that the home version has two 12's and a passive radiator. The Pro version just has two drivers and no PR. I'd thought that the Pro version had twin 15's, but no I'm thinking it has only the twin 12's. Interesting. My take one it, best bet would be to purchase the pro bass bin. I don't think that the drawings Mr. Paul published would be close enough to build it right. They worked on it so long to perfect the math and angles on the folded horn, just guessing wouldn't be close enough to have the right sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 of course dee is assuming the pro jubilee has the same folding and flare rate, etc. as the proposed home version, I am not so sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 sunny, That is indeed an assumption. Don't actually know, but have been thinking it's more likely since the both home and pro version use twin 12 inch drivers. Whatever the case, it will be interesting to find out. One thing that continues to surprise me, is considering the seeming simplicity of folding the horn on one plane... I have the impression that optimizing the bass bin took a good while. Perhaps there was more time spent in locating the right compression driver, but it is a wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 It is far easier to do than you suspect, providing that you have the information in the paper and the total height of the cabinet. The dictates of the corner will do the rest. The issue would be that it is quite tempting to change things. After all, adding a reflector at each front fold (corner)is not in the paper's diagram, nor are they employed in the La Scala. The Khorn uses them. But it is well known that a 90 deg. flat perpendicular angle will reflect the dickens out of the waveform back at the throat. Should they be added? Yes, IMO. But at what point does it not become a "real" Jubilee? Another point that I would STRESS is that although the Jubilee CAN be used away from a corner, it does not have a large enough mouth to go down to its design fc if not in a corner (1/8th space). In 1/4 space, which is how Daddy-Dee heard it, it would certainly not be going much below 60Hz with any authority. Remember that corner horns HAVE to be in corners in order to perform to their design fc. Just take you Khorns out of the corner and find out how low they go - the Jubilee is a FORE-SHORTENED horn away from the wall, and its response HAS to be "PEAKY" because of it! That's physics. {edit} granted that the horn is approx 1/3 longer than the Khorn (when away from the corner), but it is fore-shortened never-the-less. It simply does not have enough mouth area available to produce a 40Hz waveform when free-standing. {edit#2} The La Scala/Belle uses a mouth size approximately the same (4 sq. ft.) as both the Khorn and the Jubilee in a much shorted horn length (24" vs. 64"+) and that means an mixed expansion rate (60Hz/100Hz) of 70Hz. The below fc response would be usable down to 60Hz, as we know. The free-standing Jubilee would have longer horn, same mouth, but not long enough to go to the fc of 40Hz. The effect is that the horn is too short, and the mouth is too small for that frequency, and will tend to reflect backwards from the mouth back into the horn, causing a "peaky" response. To raise the design fc of the horn to around 60Hz would reduce the peakiness of the response but render corner-use less capable. The free-standing position is not going to give optimal response. I don't mean to detract from your experience, but am just trying to remind everyone to keep a perspective on things, ESPECIALLY those who have never heard a Jubilee, including me. I guess I'm kind of a curmudgeon, huh? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klewless Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 D-MAN I agree with you completely. Just because the Jubilee has a back does not mean it can be operated away from the corner if one wants maximum performance. After all, it was designed to work in a corner. Period. It seems to me if one wants to "improve" on the Khorn, the thing to do is work on that midrange. Another approach seems in order here. Perhaps something along the lines of the "Unity" horn. Hopefully someone will chime in here and talk about the Unity. I know nothing about it other than it looks on the surface like an excellent approach capable of lowering the bottom and keeping the highs. Kind of like having your cake and eating it too. You'd still be sporting a three-way but that is not all bad. The only thing I remember about it is that it's cost was way over my head. I am presuming here that it is no longer available, but I could be way off course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Here you go John, the German's are doing some interesing things: http://www.bmspro.com/products/4592nd.html D-man, you say a lot of strange things. I suggest reading the JAES article another three or four times. I mean, half of everything you said blatently contradicts the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 I am not sure that is the best driver for the top end...coax? and the response is best 800 to 20k? not bad but keep looking, maybe we can find a non-coax model somewhere (altec?)...tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 DEAN, WHAT (exactly) are you talking about?! What I said is PROVEN HORN INFORMATION - please define you are questioning about what I said. For instance the freq. response as described in the paper was tested out of doors IN A CORNER. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Tony, my response with the BMS coax was in response to John's statement: "It seems to me if one wants to "improve" on the Khorn, the thing to do is work on that midrange. Another approach seems in order here. Perhaps something along the lines of the "Unity" horn." The BMS coax looks like a killer mod for the Klipschorn. Of course, those drivers are close to $500 each. D-man, I'll spar with you in a little bit, but I have to take care of work business first. Seriously, I really enjoy most of your posts, and I learn a lot from them -- but sometimes it just seems like you run off the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Well, can't argue there, I am an known "off-roader", for sure. "Flying off the handle" is another well known trademark of mine! But YES, by all means, spar with me. I'm expecting to learn something (other than just being wrong). I won't even MENTION wires, I promise! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klewless Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 DeanG, I went to the web site you gave me. I think that driver is a grand looking piece. With that configuration you'd be able to control the tweeter section (unless the xover is contained inside the driver itself) to match whatever kind of horn you put it on. It would certainly take care of the 2 foot separation between the hi and mid drivers. Thanks for pointing out that site. I love the way Germans work on these kinds of things. One thing I noticed about the page I printed from them. The horn listed in the table for that driver did not show up on their web page. I thought it said 680 euros (is that how to spell that currency?) which is close to 919 US dollars for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 "and the response is best 800 to 20k?" Totally depends on the horn. The mid driver will go to 300hz on the correct horn. http://www.woodhorn.com/BMS/bms_4590.htm $300 each from Bill. If you poke around his site you can see Bill makes some nice wood horns too. http://www.woodhorn.com/Wood%20Horns/21inchhorn/21inch.htm I am going to try one on the EV HP640 horn. It has a 28" wide mouth and is about 24" deep with the driver. It is intended to cross at 400hz and will sit on top of a Klipshorn quite nicely. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7306297418&indexURL=1#ebayphotohosting Note the vanes in the throat to control dispersion at HF (like the original Klipsch K5). This is one of the better sounding horns for PA, and the sound quality of the BMS is prefered by many over the JBL2445 (titanium). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 interesting, thanks DJK! tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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