djk Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 "Hopefully someone will chime in here and talk about the Unity." The Unity is very similar to this Renkus-Heinz device: http://www.renkus-heinz.com/technologies/cwg/images/2_patent.jpg The unity has four smaller cone drivers (not the two shown), and one HF driver (not the two shown). If you used B&C drivers (the brand used in the HF of the Jubilee), it would cost about $500 for four 6-1/2s and two 1" compression drivers (enough for two tops for your Klipschorns). Any good 1" could be substituted (Altec, JBL, Beyma, BMS, etc), and a number of companies make essentially the same 6-1/2" driver (Audax, RCF, Beyma, etc). Parts Express sells B&C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Yeah, I guess I really "left the pavement" on that one, the Jubilee does INDEED have front corner reflectors. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 You know, time is too short and too important to nit-pick. I was going to go into a diatribe about 1/8 space loading, false corners, blah, blah, blah. I didn't agree with your 60Hz number for a Jubilee sitting out away from the walls, and was going to talk about how people don't listen to their speakers in parking lots, blah, blah, blah. How our big speakers may not always be in corners, but because of their size are always getting some LF reinforcement from the room, and blah, blah, blah!!!! I'm tired of talking about the bottom. I want to talk about the top. Can we do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Fire when ready, Gridley! If I was to do a pair, I would get a pair of these: 2" driver ...and put them in these: Wood horns ...with a set of ESN's attached down the tail board and forget the top cabinet entirely. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Well, that works nice for the Klipschorn, but I don't think I'd want to put a 400Hz horn with the Jubilee LF section -- not if you to keep it a two-way. I've looked at most of the available horns, and from what I've gathered in my pint sized brain so far is that in the end, a two-way horn speaker (even a very good one), is going to have limited HF extension. The irony here is that this is the same issue the Klipschorn has using the K-77. A mute point I suppose, since a killer compression driver coupled to a big tractrix -- even with its limited HF extension, is going have much lower distortion levels and be much more dynamic. Still, I look at the frequency response plots of some of the best 2" compression drivers, and none of them inspire any confidence for anything much above 12kHz when horn loaded. In the JAES paper, Delgado said: "Since one of the original objectives was to have the low-frequency section cross over around 600 - 700 Hz, the geometry of the horn had to change to ensure adequate acoustic output in this region." Based on this, I want to keep it as close to 650Hz as possible. Too low and it has to become a three-way, too high and the upper midrange will run into problems (which is probably why they added the passive). As far as the network goes, well, it's a two-way -- so the level of complexity is low, and active biamping starts looking pretty good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Dean, "Based on this, I want to keep it as close to 650Hz as possible. Too low and it has to become a three-way," Al's ES networks will give you a little more flexibility in that regard. You could run a 1" compression driver a bit lower then recommended for example and would still be fine. I honestly think that in a home setting most could use Al's ES450 with an Altec 1" driver and have a 2 way K'Horn if they wanted to. When I was first using the Altec drivers it was with Al's Type A which was crossing them at 400hz first order and I had no problems. The Altec recommended crossover point for them is typically second order at 500hz... so an ES at 450hz should be a piece of cake. In my two way setup I cross at 600hz to an Altec using the ES600. "too high, and the upper midrange will run into problems (which probably why they added the passive)." Passive radiators are just another type of port. I doubt the Jubilee was ported to try to help the upper midrange. Much more likely it was ported to try to extended its f3 point lower. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Just because the mid-horn has a lower fc than the crossover point DOESN'T matter at all. It DOES tend to be larger at the mouth, that's all, so I suppose that means that it might cost more, so why pay for what you don't need? My only point is that the fc of the horn SHOULD be lower than the xover point, to what degree is an economical decision, not a technical requirement, of course. I am running 400Hz fc horns at 600Hz xover point because I already had the horns. Technically, there is no drawback to this as long as size and cost is not an issue. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Got deep pockets? http://www.tad-pioneer.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4213_34181_tab=B,00.html?compName=PNA_ProductDetailComponent Altec and JBL poop out in the top octave because of the spacing of the slots in the phase plug. TAD just went to one more slot, 1.5" throat is also better for dispersion up top too. These sound great if you have the scratch, maybe $1.5K USED, $3K NEW. http://members.aol.com/araiyuichi/Measurement/Photo/FreqA290.jpg This is the old 4001 with the 2" throat on an araiyuichi wood horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 LOL, no, I don't have deep pockets. In fact, I have big holes at the bottom of them. Don't know, I suppose I could spend the next year teaching myself how to do this: http://members.aol.com/araiyuichi/Process/process01.htmhttp://members.aol.com/araiyuichi/Process/process01.htm' target=_blank> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Dean ...Refer to my reply on 2 channel to you getting rid of Your Khorns. Your going to have to accept as fact that costs are going be a big facter. But heck the cost of a years gas could be more than this project. The B&C drivers are what Delgato & Klipsch were messing with for the top end. But there are better ones. TAD 4001 or 4003 The HF wood tracktrix horn can be made as large as you want. Also the ALE series of drivers are RollsRoyce quality. But is,nt this what were all striving for? A high quality system that we will be proud of? But if your already starting off on the cheap...Why start at all. Good quality parts was the back bone in Mark levenson,s first preamp and the rest is histery. Good quality is the foundation to what that new system will sound like. Ive been pushing you now for several years to keep your eye on the ball. (dont drop it) You can do it. Dont make a paper tiger but make the best you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 I just finished putting this 2-way together. I started taking measurements and making adjustments but so far it sounds very nice.... Have fun -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Here's the other one... Have fun -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Tells us about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Sure thing Dean! I replaced the Khorn mid and tweeter with Oris 150 horns and MD-2 drivers - both from BD-Design. The drivers are based on Lowther full-range designs and couple with the horns for about 106dB efficiency. The back chambers rest on a base that houses a 30 watt Class D amp. I'm running the Oris horns with a pr of Transcendent SE-OTL amps (4w/ch). The signal is crossed over at 160-180dB (still fiddling with that) and is sent to the Khorn bass bin via the Gainclone amp. About a quarter turn is all it takes and the bass bin's gain is pretty much dialed in. I've been measuring and adjusting over the weekend and I'm getting pretty flat response to 40Hz and a 3dB drop at 32Hz before it bottoms out completely. Not sure where the driver tops out but it specs above 20kHz. Its still early on in this project but so far I'm really enjoying the combo. Bert Doppenberg of BD-Design (actually he IS BD-Design) designs and sells a nice reflex/rear-loaded bass bin but I was curious how the Oris horns would sound and blend with the Khorn. S'OK. Have fun -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 Real cool looking Bryan. I really like the laser beam focusing in your pictures. If a critic doesn't like the sound. ZAP!!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Impressive, very impressive. How much did it (they) cost? How do you like the 2-way approach? Does it present a uniform sound front, i.e., good imaging, soundstage, etc.? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I love the Oris horns. They don't come cheap though. And the drivers are too rich for my blood. You can use one of the Fostex drivers on them too, something like an FE206 or 207. Those are only about $85 each. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I gotta say, those make the Khorn bass bin look SMALL! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Thanks DM, Its still an unfinished project - I have to put a top and bottom on the wings and attach braces for rigidity. At the moment, the top of the bass bin is essentially open but I'm getting decent response down to 35Hz. Because its biamped, I tend to turn up the bass amp's gain a bit but I end up with a peak @50Hz and again at 100Hz and 125Hz until I turn it down again. The imaging is a little better than with the Khorn tops but I was satisfied with the non-modified Khorns once I built the false corners and was able to move the speakers around. The "Orishorn" has a wider soundstage and a bit more depth but the vocals and instruments are basically in the same location as with the Khorns. The Orishorn (Korishorn?) excels in detail, upper frequency extension and coherence. The upper bass/lower midrange distortions inherent with the Khorn bass bin are eliminated by crossing over at 160dB. The AER MD-2 drivers can cover 20Hz-22kHz and the Oris naturally rolls off @150Hz. Marvel's right - this stuff ain't cheap but I waited for an opportunity on a used pr so it didn't hurt too much (relatively speaking). I'll try to post some pics when I finish. Have fun -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Natural rolloff of 150 with the top, so, not much of a network right? Just a low pass for the bass bin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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