Prana-Bindu Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 I purchased my RF-3's about one year ago, and the dealer (Stereo West in Omaha, Nebraska) has a policy of accepting 100% trade-in value for upgrades. So, until I can afford those Aerial Acoustics, I wanted to maximize the Klipsch bang for my bucks. I considered going with the Heresy's, but the compromised bass scared me away. I've never heard the Legend series, and the KLF-30 is going for about $1000 nowadays, but the dealer is totally out. This leaves the RF-5 as the only choice within my current means (about $950 after the trade-in discount). So I went to Omaha on Saturday, and I got to listen to the RF-5's and the RF-7's. Yes, they do rock. No, the upgrade does not appear to be worth the cost. RF-5 vs. RF-3: slightly lower bass extension, but it's the tightness/accuracy of the bass that really shows. Better dynamics; doesn't have that overly bright sound found in the RF-3 tweeters; the horn and diaphragm sections seem to be better integrated (harder to tell the transition between the two); the decay time might be shorter on the RF-5's (that might be the amp, though). The most obvious differences: bass tightness and dynamics. The dealer didn't have any RF-3's in stock for a direct comparison, but the points identified were obvious enough. RF-7: the room in which I heard them was horrible, so I don't feel like I got to hear them shine. Why does Klipsch keep making its speakers in that nasty black finish? The RF-7's are so HUGE, that the cheapness of the black finish becomes really obvious; shame! BTW, the RF-5's appear smaller than the RF-3's.... Anyhoot, the 7's are obviously more dynamic and better balanced than the whole lot. Again, the tweeters appear more tamed than the RF-3's. From what I could tell in that sorry room, the RF-7's improve in the same way the RF-5's do, but to a greater extent. From $650 to $1500 for the RF-3 to RF-5 is a transition that suffers quite a bit from the evils of diminishing returns. Don't get me wrong: the RF-5 is obviously a better performer than the RF-3, but the price difference is unjustified. I'll withhold judgment on the RF-7's until I get to hear them in an adequate room. I really want to upgrade, but I would feel like a sucker. Maybe I'll bring in my amp to get a more accurate listen. The RF-5's were being driven by a Yamaha 5-channel receiver off a Yamaha 5-cd carousel with Z-series Monster cable: the background noise/hiss was obvious. I really want to use the full value of my RF-3's in a trade-in, but I'm just not sure the RF-5 is at all worth the price difference. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilH Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Prana-Bindu: Definitely get a second listen on the RF-7's, and a second look too! The black finish is a black ash veneer as opposed to the black vinyl wrap on the RF-3's. And as with the RF-5's also, Cherry and Maple are the other choices... PhilH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 20, 2001 Author Share Posted August 20, 2001 O.K., Phil: thanks for stepping up to the plate. Here's some questions only you can answer: What specific improvements were intended with the RF-5 and RF-7? Are you willing to identify any weaknesses in the RF-3 that were targeted in the design of the RF-5 and RF-7? How would YOU characterize the difference in sound between the RF-3, RF-5 and RF-7? I really want to upgrade AND feel good about it, so if you give me something to listen for, I'll give them them all another try. While we're treading on delicate subjects... what's up with the Jubilee project? Word around the campfire says it's supposed to be a KHorn that doesn't require corner placement. Thanks for all your kind help. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Believe it or not...Nebraska Furniture Mart carries most of the Klipsch line. I know, it makes me sick too. But with there massive inventory and purchasing power you might want to check or give them a call and see if they have the legend series. Stereo West is totally home theater...They have absolutely no two-channel amps and seeing all those Klipsch speakers being powered by 3 to 5 hundered dollar, button heavy 18 channel receivers is about enough to make a guy sick. Plus there listening rooms are totally wacked if your into serious music listening. I know your kind of like me when it comes to buying used but you might want to check around locally and see what you can find. I know a guy who got some original Fortes-mint condition, from an older lady because she thought they just took up to much space in her patio room. Very cheap, I might add. Good luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilH Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Prana Bindu: The RF-5 and RF-7 were designed, simply, to be an extension to the Reference "family", providing a logical "step-up" in sound quality from the RF-3's. The "slam" of Legend combined with the "detail" of Reference was the goal. We do not feel there are any "weaknesses" in the RF-3's at their price points, and their popularity shows us that our customers feel the same way. Your assessment of the RF-5/RF-3 difference is similiar to mine, but I will add that the soundstage and imaging is also a "step-up" to my ears when you go to the RF-5,improved by the new 8" x 8" Tractrix horn. I might even go one step farther on your bass feelings about the RF-5. I have been on the road training the last several weeks, using RF-5's, an RC-7, RS-7's and no subwoofer as my system for demo's. One room this system was in was a convention center. One of those giant, tall, let's say 100' x 200' feet acoustic nightmare rooms. Even without a subwoofer, this system had an unbelievable bass response, so good in fact that at the end of the trainings I was approached by many salespeople in disbelief that there was not a hidden subwoofer. This same story occurred in other smaller, but still, acoustic "nightmare" rooms on my journey. Part of the bass was contributed by the center and surrounds, but the RF-5's certainly showed off their differences in that area from the RF-3's. RF-7's take over where RF-5's start rolling off in the high frequency end and produce everything without a strain with their new 1.75" compression driver, and add even lower bass with their dual 10 inchers. You need to audition both the 5's and the 7's in the same room with the same amps hooked to them. I can hardly wait to demo the 7's with an RSW-15 when it hits the market! The Jubilee was auditioned in Hope by myself and several members of this BB last February...their opinions should be able to be found in a "search". It's is PWK's 2-way design of the K-Horn. You will hear more about it as time goes on... PhilH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 21, 2001 Author Share Posted August 21, 2001 Weird. Last time I called Nebraska Furniture Mart, they said they don't have too many models in stock, that they mostly just order for special requests. Maybe I spoke to the wrong dude. I'll have to check them out. At the heart of my dilema is the fact that Stereo West offers a 1-year full retail value trade-in upgrade program with their Klipsch speakers. Far down the road, I intend to be very happy with Aerial Acoustics speakers. However, until that happens, I wish to get the most bang for the buck from my Klipsch purchases. The only upgrade that seems within reason at this time is to the RF-5. The audition this last weekend revealed some great improvements, but I can't say they are worth the extra $900. However, as you mentioned, Stereo West has crappy rooms and noisy equipment. To add to the problem, the amp I have at home right now (Audio Refinement Complete) is a loaner while the VTL IT-85's remote receiver gets fixed in California. I'm familiar enough with the Complete to identify what the RF-5's bring to the table, but it's still not the amp I would be using in the long run. Otherwise, I'm very happy with my RF-3's, and I can't wait for my VTL to come back to tame those tweeters. The Complete is a great amp, well balanced, fast-paced, accurate and smoother than solid state should be, but it shrieks those highs out of the RF-3's tweeters. Sibilants are harsh (not just bright), and cymbals do to the music what anchovies, cilantro and ginger do to food. On the VTL, they remain bright, but the harshness gets turned into liquidity. Mmmmmm... garlic.... Well, that's the conundrum. Someday I want to hear a mid-range horn in my system, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. The Reference series seems to herald a move away from mid-range horns for the sake of smaller profiles. The Heresy's require a sub, and I don't like bass THAT much. The Scala's and Belle's are too big and are also accused of thin bass, and the KHorns are in the price range of my beloved Aerial Acoustics and require some unique room compromises. I don't particularly enjoy the sound of the Avantgarde's (Aerial Acoustics 6's sounded a little better to me). Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 21, 2001 Author Share Posted August 21, 2001 Thanks, Phil. The RF-7's are out of my range right now, but I would love to hear them at their best. I should be more thorough about this comparison. Perhaps on Thursday I'll truck my RF-3's and a good amp out to Omaha. Sorry, Phil, but that black finish just doesn't even come close to the Cherry or other wood finishes. I suppose that in the right room it would be great, but that room would probably have to include black furniture, a lot of chrome, and Marilyn Manson posters.... Again, thanks for stepping up to the plate. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake2 Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 PB - You may have indicated reasons for not doing this earlier, but in my haste I may have missed them. If you are looking for a mid-range horn, and the Heresy/LS/Belle/Khorn don't suit you, how about a nice pair of used Forte or Chorus, or KLF-30's? DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 21, 2001 Author Share Posted August 21, 2001 Doug: you selling? I've always been hesitant about buying used gear: enforcing warranties implied by law is difficult against some dude living in some other state with nothing to lose. Yes, I have considered going with the Forte, Chorus or Cornwalls, but the issue at hand is whether to take advantage of the 1-year upgrade policy of my dealer. Also, I would really prefer to hear the speakers before committing to a purchase, and that option is most often not there with those old speakers. Someday I'll try the mid-range horns, but it will likely be after I get to wrap my ears around those lovely Aerial Acoustics. Mmmmm... wrap.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake2 Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 PB - Actually, I will be selling at least 1 pair of Forte's, but that wasn't the reason for my post . But I realize now, as I read it, that it smacks of hucksterism which I certainly did not intend . If you find a pair local (within a couple hours drive), buy 'em. You can easily resell them for what you paid for them, if not more if you got a good deal. DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Where did you hear those Aerial Acoustics at? Sound Environment? Take a listen to the Eggleston Works. Can't remember which model number but they carry them. Absolutely beautiful, although I was scared to ask a price. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 22, 2001 Author Share Posted August 22, 2001 Yup, Sound Environment. I heard the 6's being driven by VTL gear and I couldn't believe my ears. Totally immersive, clear, accurate, luscious. I knew they carry the Egglestons, but I haven't seen them there matched with anything yet. I, too, suspect the price is prohibitive for most of us. The Aerial Acoustics 6's (cheapest of their full-range speakers) sounded better (slightly) to me than the AvantGarde's matched with VTL tiny monoblocks in their main listening room. Let's get things straight, though: there was a reason (about ten years ago) why I HAD to have a pair of Klipsch speakers. That reason used horns for the tweeter and the mid and a diaphragm for the lows. It's been too long for me to remember which speakers I heard back then when Stereo West had a home audio shop in Lincoln, but they floored me. When I had enough cash flow to make the purchase (about 1 year ago), I went straight to Stereo West and auditioned the Klipsch and Paradigm gear; thus the RF-3's. If I find a pair of those speakers, be they Forte, Chorus or Cornwall, I'll definitely give them a try. If those horns can do to the mids what the RF-3's do to the highs, I'll be a very satisfied horn-dog. Doug: no need to apologize for communicating that you may be "in the market". When you decide to part with those Forte's, send me an e-mail. I have two very good friends in Phoenix, and an audition would be a great excuse to visit. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wQuay Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 gee, just how many of us live in Nebraska? Does Stereo West carry Acoustic Energy or B&W? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Wquay....No, I know Custom Electronics in Omaha deals with B@W, but you better walk in there with a suit and tie, if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 22, 2001 Author Share Posted August 22, 2001 So far, I've counted four of us from Nebraska; God help us.... Yup, one dude at the Custom Electronics in Lincoln enjoys bragging about being a B&W dealer. BTW, I was 15 minutes away from being the proud owner of a set of Forte II's being sold by a dude in Omaha on E-Bay, and then I was outbid by like $100 while I went to pick up a friend at the airport. So close!! Looks like I'll have to wait to hear a midrange horn.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wQuay Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Custom Electronics? Lol, that's where I got my Grado SR60 headphones. The guy I spoke to was very nice, but yeah, I can see what you mean. 4? Wow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 23, 2001 Author Share Posted August 23, 2001 I always thought that Nebraska had the presence it does in these boards because of the commitment Stereo West has held to Klipsch products. Maybe it's just demographic or sumthin'.... I'm still really pissed about missing out on those Forte's. I even found a dude that would take the RF-3's off my hands if I replaced with another speaker. Tragic!! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 PB...Sorry about the Forte II auction results! I watched that auction ending and felt that the Snipes were lurking, waiting to pounce with last minute bids. Those were nice looking Forte II's. The last few auctions have had prices ranging from $556-$700+. It's a shame that sometimes to win, one has to beat the Snipes at their own game. Hey, just get down and dirty with them the next time. Hold your bid and submit within the last minute. I bit the bullet and bought a pair of Quartets today. Forte II prices plus transportation costs exceed my price point. Best of luck in the future. You're gonna get them, I feel it! Wes This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 08-23-2001 at 05:55 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 24, 2001 Author Share Posted August 24, 2001 ShapeShifter: thanks for the words of encouragement. I'll be checking e-bay and other sites quite often now. I noticed that most of the Classic Klipsch speakers aren't biwirable. What negative effects, if any, could I expect from using my biwired cables on such speakers with the extra pair not connected or doubled up with the other pair (piggy-back stylie)? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 Hi Prana-Bindu, Here my reply to your quoted question below: "What negative effects, if any, could I expect from using my biwired cables on such speakers with the extra pair not connected or doubled up with the other pair (piggy-back stylie)?" I'm addressing this in the manner below because I have no technical background or formal training in this area. So I will state my comments based my limited experience (with biwiring) and purely from a novice's point of view. Because my biwired cables remain connected to my RF-3's via my receivers "B" channel speaker connection. I used existing nonbi-wired cables to connect my 4 Front Speakers, Center & 4 Rears, as they are used for HT duties also. When you ask "What negative effects", I'm assuming you mean potentially to the sound/signal path or possible harm to audio components, like the connected speakers or the receiver/amp end of the connection. You may be able to use those cables, providing the speaker end connectors will fit the terminals of some Heritage speakers, or you could connect using bare wire of course. If your present wire sounds good throught your RF-3's, it should perform well on any Heritage speaker. However, I would not leave the extra connectors dangling freely, as those positive and negative ends will be receiving a signal from the receiver/amp end, and could make contact and cause harm to your connected components. They would have to be wrapped with some type of insulating materiel, i.e. electrical tape. Doubling up could be a viable option, providing the additional bulk fits under the terminals of certain Heritage speaker. Those speakers having the small screw terminals would be a challenge! Bottom line: I most definitely would not allow extra terminals or bare wire to hang loosely, with no insulation, from my speaker or receiver/amp connections. For me, the cost of purchasing additional wire (if needed) would be far less than the cost to repair/replace components of my system, that could potentially be fried due to a short! If the outer jacket of the bi-wire cable can be removed, you could weave or braid the separated cables into sets, you'd then have two +/- sets per bi-wired cable. Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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