Asylum Street Spankers LIVE in SURROUND

[Mallette]

Well, this disk and elephants have at least one thing in coming...two years in the making!

So, here is how it went down.

I mentioned in a post in one thread or the other last week that I'd successfully mastered a DVD-A of the Asylum Street Spankers Saxon Pub performance recorded in 03. However, I couldn't audition it as I was at my job location in Missouri and only have a 2 channel rig up there.

So, I came home to Texas for a 4 day R&R Wed night, and promptly went to work mid-morning implanting the Sony STR-DE997 from the HT system into my main listening room. I didn't mind, as I am awaiting arrival to the Panasonic class-T surround amp that was going to have to go in there anyway. Nonetheless, it took a while. I had the system set up for four channel playback with a Niles A/B amp selector that would switch to finding only 2 channels to the DynaQuad QD10 passive ambience recovery device that has been my favored LP listening mode for many years. Actually, pretty complex wiring.

Anyway, after ripping all that out, I hooked up the Sony and brought in the Pioneer 578A CD/SACD/DVD-A player. At that point, I spent 3 hours trying to determine just why I was hearing nothing out the rear. In my defense, I've very little experience with discrete multi-channel, the Sony has only been used for HT and I had no idea just how many parameters it had for other things, and the Pioneer required set up. As with computers, it is never wise to attempt to set up two new things at once in an audio system, as you cannot always tell where the problem lies. I finally decided to try the coax connector...couldn't get a peep out of it. I was using a decent quality gold cable, but wonder if there are impedance issues or anything that make digital coax iffy? Anyway, I didn't fight that one as I suddenly noticed that the "Surround" label on the Sony meant "SIDE, dummy!" So, with a deft re-plugging to the correct ports, the rears were up. Ah, genius ;-).

The system is K'horns, L&R front, Cornwall center, and Frazier MkIV's in the rear. The rear speakers are mounted up on the walls about 8 feet and angled directly down at the sofa I sit on to listen. This setup is necessitated by the nature of the room, and has worked well with the DynaQuad. For those of you not familiar with Frazier, they are the best kept secret in speakers. I probably paid less than a 100.00 for these delivered, and you'd be hard pressed to meet or better them with a 1000.00 to spend. Jack Frazier was the only other speaker designer/builder endorsed by Paul Klipsch (PWK's endorsement in my presence got me started with Fraziers). Actually, I am pretty well convinced that the Heresy was PWK's answer to the Mark IV, which is about the same size and efficiency...though I prefer the Mark IV.

So, to confirm all was well with the digital surround, I watched a few minutes of "Event Horizon" from the dish. Man, what a rush! Heritage and Home Theater is AWESOME. Very, very scary stuff during the actual slide past the event horizon with impact and palpable "Presence" equaled only by the OmniMax theater where we saw the "Polar Express" a few months back.

Now, to the task at hand. In spite of my itch to get the "Spankers" disk into the player, I wanted something of a baseline for comparison. I put in the AIX Scarlatti/Beethoven DVD-A in and listened. AIX has something of a reputation for "purist" recording and their "spin" is about as close to my own as I've seen in the business, so that is why I chose their disk for this purpose. The particular disk is performed by a wind quintet...a bit of a stretch from the Spankers, but at least kinda sorta like them in being a small acoustic group.

The sound was excellent, with marvelous detail and an excellent stage. OTOH, the surround was, while present, not "palpable." To use my own terms, Virtual Presence was not achieved. I also found the center channel to sound unnatural...something of a surprise. I'd balance the levels during setup, and it might have helped if I'd reduced it some, but the fact was this told me something important I'll comment on the summary.

Finally, the big moment. THere was something of a real moment of fear when I realized I'd not had the disc in the player. What if it spit it right back out? I tried not to think about that and shoved it in...00:00:01, 02 HOORAY!

Before getting into the sonics, a bit of refresher on the recording itself. This recording was made with four ribbon microphones mounted as close as physically possible. Two were Oktava ML-52's and the others were Beyer M-130N ©'s. All were suspended from a light bar nearly equidistant from all performers on stage and about 8 feet from the floor. The mikes were fed to my Radius 10 vacuum tube preamp, then directly to an ESI-Pro soundcard in the MBS5. Depth and sample rate was at 24/192. Don't try this at home!!! If I knew then what I know now, I'd never have used that high a rate. However, I didn't, so I did. It was the first field test of the MBS-5, and I am amazed that it did as well as it did. There are occasional data drops amounting to a fraction of a second...fatal for any commercial use, but not affecting this as an experiment other than to tell me I needed to study the situation. Since then, I've consulted with both software developers (notably Flavio Antonoli (sp?), creator of N-Track studio, which is probably the biggest bargain in multi-track recording software) and engineers and learned to tweak buffers and such so that these dropouts don't happen. I also don't record at 24/192 as there is no way to deliver this as surround and I don't have any interest in providing a 24/192 stereo mix on my DVD-A's as this would defeat the purpose...that of achieving "Virtual Presence." So, this 4 channel TORRENT of data is going direct to digitizing with no mixer or anything it its path. The files were downsampled 2 at a time through Sound Forge and, at least in theory, no sonic impact due to anything more might be attributed to simple loss of the information from the 192 kHz data. DVD-A mastering was done with Discwelder.

Then, I am suddenly sitting at the second table from the stage in an SRO crowd at the Saxon Pub in Austin, TX. I'd left a couple of minutes of this on the disk, as I really wanted to see just how "palpable" the surround would be without the performers doing anything. You can hear Stanley warming up his clarinet, some banjo/guitar strumming, and chatter from the stage.

Suddenly, from right stage, you hear the short guy with the stovepipe hat...I forget his name, doing the opening. Once he finished, the whole group kicks in, and there they are, just like I remember them.

Fingers on frets, the hard to describe sound of a fiddle string coming to life, clinking and clanking of beer bottles, glasses and cans in all directions...Virtual Presence! There is the "buzz" that comes and goes now easily identifiable as being either a fluorescent or dimmer noise that was actually present in the room. It comes and goes, and you can pinpoint it left of center and high toward the ceiling. On the CD (made from a 24/88.2 recording of the front mikes only on a separate machine), this buzz is a real nuisance and it was hard to tell whether it was induced in the cables or what. Sounds like an engineering mistake. Here, it is far less annoying as you can ignore it just like the other noises present in a living environment.

I switch back to the AIX. A truly excellent recording, but now sounding like a truly excellent recording, not the event itself. The center channel sounds even more manipulated than before.

Later, I had Ron Huebner (the lonelobo of 20.00 pair of Cornwalls and 50.00 pair of mint Marantz Model 5's fame a while back) who had been my grip, rigger, and linesman on the recording. He's pretty persnickety. He listened intently and said he thought there was a bit too much audience in the right front, but just a bit. I'll settle for that from him, especially given the "raw" nature of the setup.

Well, let's review and summarize.

First, this setup deviates a bit from the sixcard rules. The speakers are neither identical nor spaced in the precise inverse of the microphones. However, as I note in the paper (www.mbsdar.com for a pdf download if you are interested), deviation is not necessarily fatal to Virtual Presence. Also, no calibration or time alignment has been done on the system, as I really wanted it "raw." Once I move the Sony back to the HT, I'll give it a return visit with 4 identical Fraziers and report on complete adherence to the sixcard. I am still not convinced of any need for a center channel. A mike plan would be problematic, and the "easy" way would be to mix, another sixcard violation. Done with great care and a lot of experimenting, it might yield VP, but it might not. Anyway, I simply don't see the need for it in the specific purpose of preserving space-time sonic events at this point. As always, I certainly see it useful in "Event Horizon" and similar situations. Bottom line: Nothing in experiment one to suggest any changes in methodology as I proceed into a REAL "Exploration of Space" with Camerata Winds. The learning continues...

Dave

[Mallette]

ADDENDA

Only took about an hour to transplant the Sony back to the HT system. It is much closer to the sixcard specs, and the sound showed that. About the only aberration is that the rear speakers are Frazier Super Monte Carlos, and the front are MkIV's. However, the efficiencies and sound are pretty close.

Some uncanny moments of "deja vu" almost like an out of body experience. One thing I forget to mention was the applause. Applause is one of my key indicators of fidelity. 98% of the recorded applause I ever heard could also be used for rainfall. It never quite sounds right, more like everyones hands are slight cupped when clapped. This is the most noticable thing when downsampling is applied to 24/88.2 stereo originals to 16/44.1 for CD.

Anyway, this applause is right...doesn't sound like rain or frying bacon but crisp and sharp.

Dave

[fini]

Very exciting, Dave!

But do the Camerata Winds have any songs about scrotums? Might otherwise be "something" missing...

[Mallette]

That may well be my least favored Spankers song...

Dave

[Marvel]

Dave,

Congrats on the playback. Wish I was "there".

Wanted to pass this interface along.

RME Fireface800

Firewire interface that will do 24/192. More inputs than you can use and awesome specs. 1ms latency, etc.

Marvel

[fini]

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On 4/1/2005 5:48:32 PM Mallette wrote:

That may well be my least favored Spankers song...

Dave

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Oops, guess that means "No."

Increasingly I am feeling I am with the "wrong crowd" in terms of my, uh, humor...maybe I will cease and desist a bit...

[jt1stcav]

No, not at all, Gregg...everyone (with a sick sense of humor) likes good scrotum jokes!

Dave, wish I had a "universal" player to hear just how "live" this recording really is. Thank goodness both my brothers do.

[Mallette]

Well, with the first real release in planning you all should have the opportunity to judge for yourself. Under the "Exploration of Space" concept there is room for a lot of various things. Obviously, great acoustic spaces with all kinds of music, but I'd also like to do some environmental stuff...thunderstorms, the firing range at Fort Leonard Wood, steam engines (but of course!), a Sacred Harp convention, etc. etc. Ideas welcome. Basically, anything sonic and immersive.

Well see what time and money support.

Frankly, I am surprised at the low penetration of universal players with the price of admission so low. The Pioneer is about 150.00, not that much more than a plain jane DVD player. While I've not purchased a SACD yet, certainly my experience with DVD-A so far is that it beats the pants off CD in general, and, of course, cannot even be compared in its ability to deliver a complete surround environment.

Dave

Dave

[Mallette]

Pretty sweet looking rig, Marvel. At the moment, I am still using the ESI Pro XL for Virtual Presence. However, I am seriously considering a second Card Deluxe.

I really love Card Deluxe!

Dave