Music versus HT Sub?

[Guest Anonymous]

In reading reviews of subs, some are stated as being good at both music and HT, while others are stated as being more superior at one type of sound at the expense of the other. For example, I know my KSW-10 and I believe the KSW-12 are good HT subs, but sound "muddy" with music? In contrast, it seems the RW series subs are good at both? I haven't looked at the RSW series much, because they are way out of my price range, but I assume they are also good at both?

I am assuming the obvious specifications for comparing subs are the continuous and peak power, frequency response and maximum accoustical output specifications? (Bear with me, I know what to look for in regular speakers, but need a little help in sub talk.)

First off, what is meant by a sub sounding muddy? Secondly, how are the specifications of subs going to differ if they are good at music, good at HT, or good at both?

Is it realistic to find an excellent sub for both music and HT in the $400 price range (At this price I am assuming used, in excellent performance condition and good cosmetic condition.), or is this an unrealistic expectation? ,If yes, specifically what sub(s) and what specs. make it so good. (For subs I would consider looking out of the Klipsch line.)

If there is no used "magic" $400 sub and if it was your money, would you stick with the KSW-10, upgrade to the KSW-12, or save $XX.XX for a bigger upgrade? Why?

Thanks in advance your knowledgible advise. Please try and refrain from opinions and base answers on facts.

Thank you.

[CAS]

"Please try and refrain from opinions and base answers on facts."

If you want facts just read the specs off the box. Or grab Nousaine's performance data off the web. Unfortunately those can mean little until your ears try them out.

"I believe the KSW-12 are good HT subs, but sound "muddy" with music? In contrast, it seems the RW series subs are good at both? I haven't looked at the RSW series much, because they are way out of my price range, but I assume they are also good at both?"

Actually, I don't think either are good at HT. And the RSW's aren't the greatest in that department either. Extension for modern DD and DTS tracks could be better. The RSW's have great punch for music.

"what is meant by a sub sounding muddy? Secondly, how are the specifications of subs going to differ if they are good at music, good at HT, or good at both?"

A muddy speaker would be one that cannot precisely reproduce the material at a given volume level. Instead of hearing a crisp, precise, exact duplicate of the material played, it would tend to blend together and not be as discernable. But this is a subjective term and could be interpreted many different ways.

"Secondly, how are the specifications of subs going to differ if they are good at music, good at HT, or good at both?"

The performance of a sub is a function of its amplifier, driver, and enclosure's parameters. Generally (and I mean very generally), HT subs excel better in extension and have to be a bit more powerful (not always), music subs are very precise and tend to excel more in the upper frequencies, there are very few moderately priced subs that are excellent at both.

"Is it realistic to find an excellent sub for both music and HT in the $400 price range"

Nope, however the best you'll find at that price range is the brand new SVS PB-10isd. If you enjoy the sound of your KSW-10 then you have no idea what you're in for. Save for a bigger upgrade? That all depends on your wants, needs, and budget, but with Heresies the KSW-10 probably sounds quite incapable.

[Guest Anonymous]

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On 4/11/2005 11:06:44 PM CAS wrote:

"Please try and refrain from opinions and base answers on facts."

If you want facts just read the specs off the box. Or grab Nousaine's performance data off the web. Unfortunately those can mean little until your ears try them out.

"I believe the KSW-12 are good HT subs, but sound "muddy" with music? In contrast, it seems the RW series subs are good at both? I haven't looked at the RSW series much, because they are way out of my price range, but I assume they are also good at both?"

Actually, I don't think either are good at HT. And the RSW's aren't the greatest in that department either. Extension for modern DD and DTS tracks could be better. The RSW's have great punch for music.

"what is meant by a sub sounding muddy? Secondly, how are the specifications of subs going to differ if they are good at music, good at HT, or good at both?"

A muddy speaker would be one that cannot precisely reproduce the material at a given volume level. Instead of hearing a crisp, precise, exact duplicate of the material played, it would tend to blend together and not be as discernable. But this is a subjective term and could be interpreted many different ways.

"Secondly, how are the specifications of subs going to differ if they are good at music, good at HT, or good at both?"

The performance of a sub is a function of its amplifier, driver, and enclosure's parameters. Generally (and I mean very generally), HT subs excel better in extension and have to be a bit more powerful (not always), music subs are very precise and tend to excel more in the upper frequencies, there are very few moderately priced subs that are excellent at both.

"Is it realistic to find an excellent sub for both music and HT in the $400 price range"

Nope, however the best you'll find at that price range is the brand new SVS PB-10isd. If you enjoy the sound of your KSW-10 then you have no idea what you're in for. Save for a bigger upgrade? That all depends on your wants, needs, and budget, but with Heresies the KSW-10 probably sounds quite incapable.

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[DrWho]

For $400 you could probably do very well in the DIY market, but it will involve some learning and all that...If you have a decent reciever with good bass management, you could probably get away with a $200 driver (like the Adire Audio Tempest, Adire Audio Shiva, the AES AV15...previously the Stryke Audio AV15, or the 15" Dayton Titanic MKIII), and then get a decent amp for $200. You can get a 500 watt plate amp for $300 from partsexpress with the fancy volume, crossover and phase knobs as well as a parametric EQ.

I know that Adire Audio provides designs for their drivers so that might be a good way to go. It can do +-2dB from 20-200Hz at over 110dB (in a "small" 10 cubic foot box, lol). Perhaps disguise the cabinet as some other piece of furniture (like a coffee table, TV stand, or even build it to fit behind a couch).

If you don't wanna do the DIY thing, then SVS is definetly a good way to go. You might also want to consider the RW lineup as it performs close to the RSW, but is under half the price (and much better than the KSW lineup).

If you are serious about your HT, I think it'd be cheaper in the long run to save your money now and wait to purchase a really killer sub. Just my own opinion of course.

[Guest Anonymous]

CAS, thank you.

I am new to forums and tried to respond to your message quote by quote, but as you can see, I just repeated your whole message?

Anyway, some follow-ups to your response:

1. Regarding leaving out opinions and sticking with facts/specs.:

I got your point. I just wanted responders to back-up their statements versus some posters who make statements like "this is the best sub ever" and not state why. Also, I was hoping to narrow down some choices and figured similar sub specs would be a good starting point for determining what would be the biggest bang for my buck.

2. Regarding an excellent sub for music and HT at my price range:

Believe it or not that is the exact answer I was looking for. Otherwise, I would be in search of the "Holy Grail" for who knows how long!

3. Regarding the KSW-10 and SVS PB-10isd:

No, I am not overly impressed with my KSW-10. I do not have a trained ear, but the only thing I can say I realy like about it is the certain times it moves a lot of air during HT playback (I am assuming during LFE?). Otherwise, yes, the Heresy(s) seem to dominate playback. (The only audio sense I will claim to have was the wisdom to buy the Heresy(s) 20+ years ago.)

My ultimate goal was not to spend $400 or so on another sub and have the same results I have now. Your comments are not the first I have heard about the PB-10isd. In your opinion, it seems there will be a night and day difference? Also in your opinion, is there any other new subs that compare to the PB-10isd at the $429 price point? (Granted, I know opinions are subjective.) Lastly, are yopu aware of any older popular (can be readily found on the used marketplace) models that would compare to or exceed the PB-10isd?

[Scp53]

Is DIY an option at all for you? I just built a Ascendant Audio Atlas 15in sub in a 6.5 cu. ft box(size after amp/brace/woofer/etc). Its tuned to 20hz and has a TON of output. I built it all for $350 which includes shipping and all my parts and paint. Its capable of keeping up with some of the bigger svs's(<$2000). And if musicality is a big concern, don't worry because its still quite musical. IMO, it can stay as tight with music as my dayton 10in titanic which is sealed. I ll have finished cab pics up on another thread in a few days. Oh yea, and it only needs to 250-300watts to get full potential in this box. Heres a few pics of it(before i finished it)-

[sivadselim]

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On 4/11/2005 11:06:44 PM CAS wrote:

And the RSW's aren't the greatest in that department either. Extension for modern DD and DTS tracks could be better. The RSW's have great punch for music.

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i don't know. i don't watch too many movies, but i watched the incredibles (loved it) and gladiator (can't believe that that won best picture) yesterday and was pretty darn pleased with my rsw15's performance.

[sivadselim]

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On 4/11/2005 7:35:17 PM No NHL ! ?? wrote:

If there is no used "magic" $400 sub and if it was your money, would you stick with the KSW-10, upgrade to the KSW-12, or save $XX.XX for a bigger upgrade? Why?

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in the $400 range, there ARE some subs that will definitely outperform the others. some have been mentioned here.

moving from a ksw10 to a ksw12 would not be that much of an upgrade. don't do that.

i know it's tough, but if you're really picky about your sound, try and save and spend more than $400; maybe twice that. in the long haul, you'll be glad you did. of course we ALL do it, but there's nothing worse than constantly wondering "what if......" about your sound system. get a sub you'll be proud of, not just one to get you by.

[Scp53]

the rsw15 does have good performance. But for a movie like The Incredibles, your missing the REAL low end for sure. Theres a lot of <25hz content and goes as low as in a few spots 5hz(which very few subs can do). That rsw15 is good to like 22-25hz if i recall correctly. So you miss a lot(the REALLY subsonic stuff) of the movie. The same goes for Finding Nemo, u571, and some other movies. The other night i watched The Incredibles and there was a part with almost pure unhearable bass(<20-25). If I would have been using my 10in titanic it would either have blown or just not heard it(the titanic is good to 30hz). Now for movies like Gladiator the rsw15 is really good(no real low stuff that im aware of). It gives you the "punch" in the movies. anyone agree with me on what i just said?

scp53

[Colin]

First, cool newbie, you do not list your system in the profile, so the answers you are bound to get are subjective at best. Now, having said that, having owned KSW sub, I know it is wonderful for adding to music and movies, for the money, but yes, it does extend up past 250Hz, which is upper bass area and does muddy the sound when used as much as you would like with movies. Yes, the RSW is better at both: deeper, probably faster, and with more output too. Not sure what the power means. My 250-watt measured better in my room than Klipschs 500-watt LF10. But the shape of the frequency response is very important: how it fits into your existing frequency response is important to creating a flat response from 20 to 20kHz. Yes, you can find used subs for that price that will be better than the KSWs, but you are better off building a Part Express Titanic III kit for $725. The deeper reach and higher output make it a better fit for full-range speakers. That is what I plan to do next.

[Scp53]

Colin, have you ordered that titanic kit yet? or are you making it DIY? the price on it is still $688 shipped to your door, not $725.

scp53

[Guest Anonymous]

Everyone thanks for all your input!

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On 4/12/2005 1:59:09 PM Colin wrote:

1. "First, cool newbie, you do not list your system in the profile, so the answers you are bound to get are subjective at best."

2. ".......... KSW sub, I know it is wonderful for adding to music and movies, for the money, but yes, it does extend up past 250Hz, which is upper bass area and does muddy the sound when used as much as you would like with movies."

3. " But the shape of the frequency response is very important: how it fits into your existing frequency response is important to creating a flat response from 20 to 20kHz."

4. ".......... but you are better off building a Part Express Titanic III kit for $725." The deeper reach and higher output make it a better fit for full-range speakers. That is what I plan to do next."

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Responses:

1. I guess I am a cool newbie (No NHL ! ??), I thought the system info. at the end of my posts was my system profile. Cut me some slack, I just figured out how you can copy, paste and edit prior posts for more concise responses. By the way, I just found the section to create a system profile in my user profile, thank you.

2. ? If my a/v amp is set at 80hz and KSW-10 is set at 85hz cross over points respectively, the sub still produces output to the 250hz range? I thought my sub's range (response) was 29-120hz?

3. ? My main's and center's response range are 50hz-17Khz and 56hz-20Khz respectively; what sub spec. do I look at to insure it " fits into my existing frequency response to create a flat response"?

4. No, I am not afraid at all to assemble a "DIY" kit, for that matter, I wouldn't be afraid of fabricating my own enclosure. I would just need someone to tell me what size to make and what to put in it.

In regards to the 15" Titanic you refered to, in some archived discussions about the SVS PB-10isd and 25-31 pci the Titanic sub came up (soundandvisionmag.com). The guy doing the review (performed detailed accoustic tests) praised the 10" Titanic. In fact, he mentioned the only two good performing subs under $500 were the 10" Titanic and the SVS PB-10isd. Anyway, it was mentioned that the consultant who put together the 10" Titanic package for Parts Express was some accoustics engineering GOD in the speaker design field. FYI, it was mentioned the 12" and 15" were not designed by this same engineer and no one would give these two subs the same accolades as the 10" Titanic received? (If you want I saved the link and can forward it to you.)

Conclusion:

All of you guys have got me scared to pull the trigger!

After I did my original post, I was ready to go for the SVS PB-10isd ($429 + $41 shipping) . After some DIY suggestions, I was also considering the 10" Titanic kit ($350 + $ No shipping) and was trying to compare which was a better value and which I would be happier with in the long run?

Then, I started hearing others say buy the biggest/best of what you can afford. (Good advise; so I had to tell the wife too bad, the budget is going to increase! By the way, thanks, guys. Luckily it will blow over in a day or two, but those will be long days!)

Now, I am looking at the SVS PB-12isd or 25-31pci ($599 + $49 & $549 + $28), HSU STF-3 ($599 + $?) or the Dayton Titanic 12" MK III Parts Express kit ($537 + $No shipping) What do you guys think?

From what I can tell the two SVS models perform relatively the same and the SVS models seem to barely out perform the HSU model. If I had to buy new, I would most likely go with the 25-31pci because of its cheapest out the door price. In addition, I like the shape because it takes up less floor space, but I am unsure of the all fabric covering design? Then, there is the wild card of the 12" Titanic. Granted, I couldn't make a comparison to the others, but is this sub on the same playing field as the other three? The pressure is on you sub gurus, what ever I buy I will not replace for a long, long, time. (By the way, where would the Klipsch RW-12 compare to the above?)

Lastly, I tried searching for these subs in the used market place and there doesn't seem to be many around. (The money I save can go towards my three boys' summer ice hockey camps. If not, they can skate on the water!) Is it a matter of patience and some will show up, or are there not that many in the market place that will come up for sale? If I found one used, maybe I would only be in the "dog-house" for one long day instead of two very long days!

Is there a spell check for these posts?

Again, thank you.

[meuge]

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On 4/13/2005 12:29:20 AM No NHL ! ?? wrote:

Responses:

If my a/v amp is set at 80hz and KSW-10 is set at 85hz cross over points respectively, the sub still produces output to the 250hz range? I thought my sub's range (response) was 29-120hz?

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You never want to use more than one crossover. If a subwoofer has an LFE input that bypasses the internal crossover, you want to use that. If it doesn't, you should set the crossover to the highest possible level, when you're using an electronic crossover inside your receiver.

Now, I am looking at the SVS PB-12isd or 25-31pci ($599 + $49 & $549 + $28), HSU STF-3 ($599 + $?) or the Dayton Titanic 12" MK III Parts Express kit ($537 + $No shipping) What do you guys think?

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On 4/13/2005 12:29:20 AM No NHL ! ?? wrote:

From what I can tell the two SVS models perform relatively the same and the SVS models seem to barely out perform the HSU model. If I had to buy new, I would most likely go with the 25-31pci because of its cheapest out the door price. In addition, I like the shape because it takes up less floor space, but I am unsure of the all fabric covering design? Then, there is the wild card of the 12" Titanic. Granted, I couldn't make a comparison to the others, but is this sub on the same playing field as the other three? The pressure is on you sub gurus, what ever I buy I will not replace for a long, long, time. (By the way, where would the Klipsch RW-12 compare to the above?)

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The RW-12 is a nice sub... but I don't know how it would compare to the others in this price range. All I know is that when I bought my 15" Titanic III Kit I was sure I didn't want to buy another subwoofer for many years... so while I could only afford the 12", I chose to borrow the difference. Based on my experiences... which are outlined in a very detailed review you can find on this board, I made the right decision. The 12" Titanic is a very different sub from the 10" due to the different amp (which includes a Parametric EQ) and the different driver. There have been some complaints about the 10" and even the 12" kits being slightly underpowered... but no one has questioned the 1000-watt big guy that comes with the 15" kit.

[Colin]

With extension down to 50Hz, you do need a sub to fill in below that, this will give you wider response for music and deeper response for movies. Unfortunately, moderate price retail subs do not go that deep. Although they measure fine, they do have upper end response that can extend and overlap above 50Hz. You need a sub to fill in the enormous energy requirement of the huge waves below 50Hz, down to 20Hz. Regardless of the stated frequency response, the sub given a full bandwidth signal will have output extending up past its rated range, even if that higher output is below the radar. It may be lower in volume that the rest of the stuff, but it is still there and has the potential to add to, and muddy, the upper bass and/or mid-range.

I would look at the Fs spec, if they are provided, as this will be the high point of the subs frequency response. A Fs of 60Hz and the sub will put out the most at that frequency (good for movies, not accurate though when used with your mains for critical music). A Fs of 40 or lower would be better. The same specs and measurements are not often accurately provided; there is a lot of variance and the manufacturers dont say how they arrive at the specs. Speakers and amps are bad in these ratings subs are worse. So used, DIY or kits are the way to go. You wont need your mid-bass sub after you get a deeper and more powerful one, so the sale of that can offset the increase of the new one. Get one deep and powerful enough and you will not be upgrading for a very long time!

[jacksonbart]

With extension down to 50Hz, you do need a sub to fill in below that, this will give you wider response for music and deeper response for movies. Unfortunately, moderate price retail subs do not go that deep. Although they measure fine, they do have upper end response that can extend and overlap above 50Hz. You need a sub to fill in the enormous energy requirement of the huge waves below 50Hz, down to 20Hz.

Colin - Would you describe the RSW15 as that type of sub? Just curious to hear your opinion since I am sure you have heard many more subs than I.

[Scp53]

jacksonbart, if you are asking if the rsw15 has depth to 20hz the answer is no. I beleive the output drops rapidly somewhere close after 25hz.

And to answer the question about the titanic mk3 10in kit, yes its under powered. It clips like mad on music and a little in ht if pushed real hard(not real audible in ht). If your going to get one of the kits, the 15 would be the one to get. And if you were tied for money and diy wasn't an option Id get that 10in svs. If diy is an option Id strongly consider an atlas driver from ascendant audio.

scp53

[jacksonbart]

Scp53 -

Hav you ever heard the RSW15? It rated at 19hz at -3Hz, I have heard it rolls off quickly at 20Hz, which one reason it has such high clean output. I have seen the rating of 30hz at 130dbs. I can't say for sure, but I have measured the c weighted output at over 100 dbs, but perhaps your right it, rolls off at 25hz, certainly does not feel that way. Again would like to hear from someone who has heard the RSW15 amongst other subs.

THX

[SteelerFan]

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On 4/13/2005 12:44:58 AM meuge wrote:

The 12" Titanic is a very different sub from the 10" due to the different amp (which includes a Parametric EQ) and the different driver. There have been some complaints about the 10" and even the 12" kits being slightly underpowered... but no one has questioned the 1000-watt big guy that comes with the 15" kit.

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Actually I was lurking on the S&V forum the other day when I ran across a thread where someone did question the power of the 15" Titanic. They liked the 10" model but claimed both the enclosures for the 12" and 15" are too small for their rated power. Do I buy it? Not really. It just goes to show there is always someone who has something bad to say about any product.

Myself, I'm trying to decide between ponying up the money for the RSW-15 because I put music first, or going for the Dayton 15" because at at a little over $700, including spray adhesive and polyfill, I think it's a great value.

[Fish]

Everyone has got their own thing but the rsw15 makes my floors and rafters vibrate in a 525 sq ft room with high ceilings.I've never turned it past 1 oclock for fear of the roof callapsing when listening to concerts.Before the 15 I had a sunfire and an svs in the same room,the sunfire was a good all-around performer and the svs only for HT(imo).I much prefer the rsw15 to both of them,together.

[meuge]

If you can afford the RSW-15, then by all means go for it... Also, at that price range you have a cornucopia of other great choices.

However, it is roughly 2X the price of the 15" Titanic kit... if not more. Is it 2X the sub - probably not, but at that price it SHOULD be better. Of course I do not have both subs on hand to compare (if someone wants to send me an RSW-15 for review, then by all means do it . I am not saying that the Titanic is the ultimate subwoofer... it certainly lacks the extension to claim that title. But it's undoubtedly very good for the money, and can certainly compete with subs in the $1000 range.

P.S. In my room I've never had the Titanic's gain setting past 10-11 o'clock. Since my room is a collossal bass sink, I am currently using the EQ to boost the lower frequencies at +/- 0.5 octaves from 28Hz by 6dB. This gives me a semi-flat slope (+/- 6dB is the best I could do at listening point) down to 25Hz. But remember - my room is a measly 160 sq. ft... which is definitely not enough for the sub to perform at its best.