Erik Mandaville Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Tony: ""strange women lying around in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government, supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farsical aquatic ceremony" nuf'said?" No. Please elaborate without allusion. Thanks, Erik PS: I thought this thread was a waste of time!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 Is that from "Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail"? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 D-Man: "Since the room is a sealed enclosure itself, the room must also have a low frequency resonance and also presumably, a low frequency Fc." What!? Whose room? Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 D-MAN's got it again... the Next Big Thing will be Theile-Small parameters for rooms! "Tim, you are wise and see much that is hidden." Arthur (King of the Britons) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 "what, held behind the dorsal guiding feathers?" yes monty python...no allusion only a response to paul's original python quote... tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 "But I think that rooms tend to leak bass mostly due to the transfer of vibration, not through air leaks (hopefully). But the intent is that they are sealed to the "free" movement of air. The transfer of sound due to sympathetic vibration is another thing." Certainly energy is transfered through physical conduction through typical walls and such but rooms still have plenty of air leaks in them. Interior doors aren't weatherstripped, electrical outlets leak into the walls (unless you seal them with gaskets and caulking...I did), if you have baseboard heat there are holes for the plumbing in the room, fireplaces, open floor plans.... etc..etc... But even if you wanted to consider a perfectly sealed room then take that volume and model any woofer you want with that sized volume. As far as probably any woofer is concerned that sized volume would act like an infinite baffle. IOW the 'air spring' of the room would have no effect on the woofer itself. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 ", like the speaker enclosure, behave just like one too, with the exception that the room has no exit for the soundwaves." So when you put on bass and walk outside of your room you can't hear it? I highly doubt that. Most rooms are *very* leaky. Typical single stud drywalls let a very large amount of bass through them. Quite likely more bass 'escapes' the room then is reflected by the walls in a normal room. My room is built on staggered studs (different studs on interior walls then the exterior drywall to reduce physical transmission) with double layers of drywall on the inside glued and screwed together. The walls are not connected to the house at all except on the poured concert basement floor. Ceiling is its own set of studs completely unconnected to the rest of the house with double drywall on it also glued and screwed. My door is *heavy* with Zero products acoustics seals and a hydraulic closer keeping it sealed against them. Even with all this bass still gets out. "The ROOM is the problem with long waveform propagation using loudspeakers." The room is a problem.... period. It isn't limited to bass. The bass range presents some special problems but the room influences all playback. Forget the length of the room. Look at the small path length difference from the direct sound and the first reflection point to the listener. That may be either from the floor or the side walls depending upon the speaker layout. Even in a 1000' long room that reflection will screw things up. The distance from the floor to the woofer will determine where the 'Allison Effect' kicks in which will alter the speakers power response pretty much throughout the room even without any other reflections. Shawn ---------------- On <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />6/8/2005 3:08:40 PM D-MAN wrote: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Agreed. But I think that rooms tend to leak bass mostly due to the transfer of vibration, not through air leaks (hopefully). But the intent is that they are sealed to the "free" movement of air. The transfer of sound due to sympathetic vibration is another thing. Granted some sound-energy is lost this way. But the highest percentage of sound energy is reflected around the interior until it either dissipates and/or is absorbed. I think that a solid (brick, concrete,etc.) surfaced room definitely sounds the best (with adequate absorption). Unfortunately, I don't have one. ---------------- Help me out guys! Bass energy is lost/dissipated in a number of ways in a room, as no surface is an ideal absorber or reflector of energy. After all, what would we do if we succeeded in completely filling the room with LF, MF, and HF sound! Would the music stop if we did not let some of the sound out so that the new sound could enter? Where are we going here? Yes, the behavior of sound within the room IS the issue! And the room is a fundamental component of this, along with the speakers. And we encounter a special circumstance where the dimensions of a room are less then the wavelength of a reproduced frequency! And YES, the waveform can be reproduced! And a room's modal response is generally well understood, with real world variables such as the room geometry along with the reflective, absorptive (and conductive), and diffusive characteristics of the various room surfaces entering into the issue in a significant manner. And from here we can look at the room response modeled from a first, second, third or higher order magnitude of reflections and the effect that the surfaces reflect/absorb/conduct/diffuse the sound energy. And the resulted fields exhibit a complex response based upon the complex superposition of all of these waveforms comprised of various frequencies, gain, and phase. At this point, the complex room response is generally too complex to simply address it in terms of the first or second order models and in the interest of time and accuracy it would be wise to measure the room with one of the appropriate measurement tools which can accurately measure the resultant complex behavior while also breaking it down in to the various components within the frequency and time domains, as well as resolving the reflected signals and identifying the specific locations of the reflective surfaces effecting the propagation of the sound energy within the room and then to appropriately treat the lower order anomalies followed by addressing the higher order sources of acoustical anomalies. OK so we seem to agree that sound is attenuated by absorption, re-directed by reflection, and uniformly distributed by diffusion. Traditional home theater and listening room acoustical treatments typically focus on sound absorption and reflection. And while absorption and reflection are important ingredients, effective surround sound can only be realized with an appropriate balanced approach that utilizes all of the ingredients of the acoustical toolbox. (Not to mention the FUNDAMENTAL issue of adjusting the direct signal arrival times of the various sources to be as close to equal as possible for all sources!!!!! A feat generally difficult to accomplish for more then a small defined sweet spot!) Oh, and I will avoid D-Mans statement : I think that a solid (brick, concrete, etc.) surfaced room definitely sounds the best (with adequate absorption). Not because there is anything inherently wrong about it. But due to the qualification, this particular wall is potentially no different then any other wall! And I have a difficult time deciding between various things with essentially the same characteristics! But there are always the cable and SS vs. tube threads! Do we really want to continue to debate this? Do we remember what it is exactly that we are debating? I fear we have reached a point where we are indeed weighing ducks and women to see which floats (ergo to determine if she is a witch). That is when we arent hanging around ponds waiting for someone to throw a sword at us! Perhaps it depends on whether we are discussing African or European swallows! Anyone have Terry Gilliam's number handy to direct this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 dman, I can accept that as a room becomes smaller and smaller, and even more and more sealed, room effects tend to play a more and more important role in the resulting sound, and the room can manifest certain attributes that resemble a speaker cabinet, in that we agree. however the idea that any of these features limit low end response to some specific Hz number is what I reject totally, any room, any size will "allow" 20hz to be produced and heard. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 You might think that this means that a room will augment the fundamental modal frequencies and that we should dampen/absorb them, unless of course we want to augment the room's fundamental resonance frequencies, in which case we can add a large port for a reflex tuning or simply leave it as an acoustic suspension or IB tuning! Or, with an additional room, I guess that we could create a tuned bandpass enclosure! Or,.... Gee whiz! I am at the point of hoping neither ducks, women, wood, nor very small rocks float, and someone please put an end to this! Mr. Wizard! Mr. Wizard! Help me Mr. Wizard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 ---------------- On 6/8/2005 2:59:49 PM sfogg wrote: My room is built on staggered studs (different studs on interior walls then the exterior drywall to reduce physical transmission) with double layers of drywall on the inside glued and screwed together. The walls are not connected to the house at all except on the poured concert basement floor. Ceiling is its own set of studs completely unconnected to the rest of the house with double drywall on it also glued and screwed. My door is *heavy* with Zero products acoustics seals and a hydraulic closer keeping it sealed against them. ---------------- Ooooo-kay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Squawk! Squawk! Squawk! As usual, just more parrot crap in addition to your usual BS! So you have no problem lying now too!? Should we be surprised! That was imported with the quote function from sfogg, but don't let the facts confuse you! Why set a precedent that you can't live up to! And as far as the formatting, complain to the webmaster! Just make it up as you go..... Squawk! Squawk! Squawk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 Ok, it's just a thought... it may not have any application in the real world. Just thinking "outside the box" (pun!). "run away or I shall TAUNT you again." DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 ---------------- On 6/8/2005 6:41:47 PM D-MAN wrote: Ok, it's just a thought ... it may not have any application in the real world. Just thinking "outside the box" (pun!). "run away or I shall TAUNT you again." DM ---------------- A welcome thing, that, in this thread! BEDEVERE: Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science? ... ARTHUR: This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. ... GUARD: You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt! GALAHAD: What a strange person. ARTHUR: Now look here, my good man! GUARD: I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough water! I fart in your general direction! You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! GALAHAD: Is there someone else up there we could talk to? GUARD: No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a! ARTHUR: Now, this is your last chance. I've been more than reasonable. ... TIM: I warned you! But did you listen to me? Oh, no, you knew it all, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it? Well, it's always the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 ---------------- On 6/8/2005 6:28:34 PM dragonfyr wrote: Squawk! Squawk! Squawk! As usual, just more parrot crap in addition to your usual BS! So you have no problem lying now too!? Should we be surprised! That was imported with the quote function from sfogg, but don't let the facts confuse you! Why set a precedent that you can't live up to! And as far as the formatting, complain to the webmaster! Just make it up as you go..... Squawk! Squawk! Squawk! ---------------- Fixed my post to reflect that Shawn said that instead of dragonfyr. In the meantime, dragonfyr has again demonstrated that too much Monty Python is not good for one's brain cells. A normal person would say, "Excuse me, Sir Parrot, but it was Shawn who really said that; all I did was make it look like I had said it because I don't know how to use the Quote function properly and want to blame the Webmaster for my inabilities." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 "I didn't come here for an argument." The first example with the standing wave on the string shows the use of only one value of omega t (2pif) in the two orginal waves and in the summed response. Therefore it is reporting that there is no new frequency. That's what I said. And it reports nodes and anti-nodes on the string. My two speaker example is just to show the same in real life experience where we know with some certainty the signals summed at our ear are different from each other in magnitude and phase, and when summed do exhibit the same frequency. Therefore, there is no waveform distortion in the sum except for magnitude and phase. This has to be because otherwise reflections and their resulting summing could introduce new frequencies not present in the orginal. That does not happen. Otherwise we'd hear Sir Paul's bass notes changing in pitch as we move around the room. I'm being a little careful about saying that room nodes can go to absolute silence (the summed magnitude is zero), though that was not my point at all. It can get very low. However, my thought is that the room would have to have perfect, non-lossey reflections. Maybe this topic is dead. Or maybe it is just sleeping. Smile, Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 "just saying ´no it isn´t´ is not arguing" "yes it is" William F. is always worth listening to... tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 ---------------- On 6/8/2005 9:15:00 PM Parrot wrote: Fixed my post to reflect that Shawn said that instead of dragonfyr. In the meantime, dragonfyr has again demonstrated that too much Monty Python is not good for one's brain cells. A normal person would say, "Excuse me, Sir Parrot, but it was Shawn who really said that; all I did was make it look like I had said it because I don't know how to use the Quote function properly and want to blame the Webmaster for my inabilities." ---------------- An intelligent person intent on commenting about a previous post would have read the previous posts sufficient to be aware of what was quoted. But I guess that means this reference doesn't apply in this circumstance! My bad! And that is how the quote function imported the multiple posts - complete with its weird formatting of fonts. I don't care whose fault it is. But I find it interesting that you are so concerned about it! But thanks for your pathological concern for worrying about me rather then contributing anything of note. Perhaps I should care about what you have to contribute! But alas, I don't. I'll just have to carry that burden! And if I was more intelligent, I would know better then to bother to read anything that you post. Hereafter I have no interest in what you think of me nor my ideas, and I have even less interest in what you have to say. So ignore me and I will do my best to ignore you and the rest of the brain trust who likes to hold court and pass judgement on those not in your mutual admiration clique, or others who might have the audacity to disagree with you! And heaven forbid they should dare to own Jubilees without first asking your permission!! And you can simply refer to Clint Eastwood regarding his comment regarding what might have meaning for you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 ---------------- On 6/8/2005 5:58:07 PM dragonfyr wrote: You might think that this means that a room will augment the fundamental modal frequencies and that we should dampen/absorb them, unless of course we want to augment the room's fundamental resonance frequencies, in which case we can add a large port for a reflex tuning or simply leave it as an acoustic suspension or IB tuning! Or, with an additional room, I guess that we could create a tuned bandpass enclosure! Or,.... ---------------- The irony to this post is that in the recent issues of JASA, there have been quite a few interesting articles regarding coupled spaces and their indeed having just such an effect upon the primary space ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 This needed to be dug up from the grave.... Anyone out there still believe the room limits low frequency reproduction? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Do you ever sleep; LOL [] Just kidding!! You have a PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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