skaloumbakas Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Hi all, Maybe this is not exactly a music review, since it involves comparisson between 2 source formats of various types of Music, but it is not exactly an audio... paper either. Never the less, the music I am referring to is very interesting, no matter if you have it recorded on vinyl or on an aluminum disc... The purpose of doing this is to face this old analogue vs.digital "war", from the point of the final acoustical experience and pleasure, listening to both formats - which is what matters anyway - and not from a technical point of view. We've had enough of this... Please visit: aca.gr/rec05_skal1.htm Sorry to trouble you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 ---------------- On 6/19/2005 12:50:40 PM skaloumbakas wrote: Hi all, Maybe this is not exactly a music review, since it involves comparisson between 2 source formats of various types of Music, but it is not exactly an audio... paper either. The purpose of doing this is to face this old analogue vs.digital "war", from the point of the final acoustical experience and pleasure, listening to both formats - which is what matters anyway - and not from a technical point of view. We've had enough of this... ---------------- May I suggest that this isn't asking for a comparison of the two formats at all! As you can't ask for a comparison while simultaneously dismissing the "technical point of view. (As) we've had enough of this..."!!! - Since this rather effectively eliminates any discussion, and relegates any talk to one's "feelings", I wonder if you might just talk about the music itself?!?!?! But in any event, it should be a lively discussion! Especially since the rules preclude one camp from speaking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 You are right. Maybe the way of writing this topic was not so proper. So, I will ask for other members' contribution, if they have the same feeling with me about the subject or the oposite... Sorry for the misanderstanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Are you desiring to compare the 'mix' of the music itself, if you will, between the analog and digital releases? To compare and contrast how the engineers have treated the source material while mixing and mastering, and how well different voices are balanced, etc., between of the releases in the different formats, as opposed to just debating the more obvious technical differences between analog and digital formats (such as S/N, etc.)? That would be much more interesting to me. Especially now, as so many titles are again being re-mastered and re-released in the digital formats. And each has advantages and disadvantages, with the new re-masters often, but not necessarily being better. And some simply constitute a new approach to the original work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 Obviously you haven't made many listening comparissons yourself... I am talking about the "palpable sense of presence". This is what matters to me and this is why, fortunatelly, people are getting back to vinyl, if they want to sit in their couch and hear music that is (not driving...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Nope, never have, with ~3000 lps and about 3500 CDs I have no idea what either sound like. But friends tell me they have heard of some machines that spin that can make the rek-ords make noise! Is that true? Wow! Will wonders never cease!? Sorry for trying to understand what you meant... I still am not sure... And yes, I have heard that records are set to displace CDs any day now! I understand the manufacturers are about to scrap the entire digital format entirely, admitting their gross error and feeling very sheepish and guilty for abandoning vinyl! And it doesn't stop there! I understand Intel and IBM are considering abandoning both digital CPUs and their quest to develop quantum well devices and going back to tubes as well. Where will it end!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 That's very good my dear friend!!! So you have more to offer to this topic about specific Classical works, Jazz tunes and other music that you own in both vinyl and CD's (I suppose you have more than me). In other words, please tell us that... - with such and such I prefer vinyl - with such and such I prefer CD or SACD or HDCD or whatever. But please, BE SPECIFIC about certain music, not just words!!! We can wait for a week, since this I am asking, is not a matter of seconds to reply... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 my opinions pretty much mirror what is said about vynil vs cd audio in this document. http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Well, this topic is always one where open warfare is nearly inevitable. Seems to be a bit of sniping going on already... However, I'll venture my opinion. There is no "superior" or "inferior" media. There are superior recordings, inferior recordings, and either can be issued with superior or inferior transfers to the distribution medium. I've heard poor recordings well transferred to CD, LP, tape, or whatever, and I've heard superb recordings transferred poorly. I've also heard excellence straight through in all media. I've come to feel that the "superiority" of vinyl (or shellac, for that matter as I've some marverlous 78's) is more a matter of mature engineering than any inherent superiority. Therefore, if I understood your desire to avoid further discussion of the technical advantages of analog vs. digital, I am with you. There was a time when I felt that digital was "the holy grail." Later, I decided analog was definitely superior. Then, I found that both could supply excellence, and both could supply crap. And that's all I gots to say about THAT. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sivadselim Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 dragonfyr, why you gotta be such an ***? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 I prefer CD's because of their simplicity, it was such a pain to pull a record, get out the discwasher cleaner and brush, give it a good brushing and claening, then de-static it. Use a brush to clean the stylus, then start to play it! What a PITA! If I don't like a particular song, I have to get up and move the tonearm over to skip it. In addition, phono output is lower and you have noise and feedback to deal with. No thanks you can have it. That being said I would record LP's to TDK MAX-G cassettes for playback on the Nakamichi TD-700 in my car using a DBX Dynamic Range Expander and they could easily compare or best those done from CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 ---------------- On 6/20/2005 9:10:00 AM sivadselim wrote: dragonfyr, why you gotta be such an ***?---------------- Would you ask a bird to stop being a bird? Likewise, would you expect a tree to suddenly pull up its roots and dance a jig? Some things are natural facts. Acceptance is our only course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Christos, You ask too much - and possibly for the wrong thing... I do not think there is too much milage in trying to compare specific recordings on CD Vs Vinyl simply because there are too many vairables in place. I think there is milage for the individual to compare listening experiences over time with vinyl and with CD (or other digitial media) and then drawing conclusions. Case in Point: Orff: Carmina Burana The Philadelphia Orchestra / Eugene Ormandy Janice Harsanyi - Soprano, Rudolf Petrak - tenor, Harve Presnell - Baritone Rutgers University Choir F Austin Walter - Director MS 6163 Colombia Exact recording re-released under the title "great performances" in 1981 with different packaging but refering back to the original release. I have both. The original is WAY better. Much more impact or "presence" as you put it - no comparison. Only thing is - both are on vinyl! If the identical performance on the same media has so much variation - how can we possibly use this as the basis for comparing media? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 Dear Max, 25 vinyl records (that ALL I have in both media...) and none of them to be inferior than its copy on digital, says something, does it? In fact, it sends a clear message!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 "says something, does it?" That your analogue playback system is better than your digital? Which, it undoubtedly is! You know that I too am a huge fan of vinyl - in fact it is all I listen to these days on the main system - but I cannot start to compare a $10,000 analogue system front end to a $300 digital front end. As I stated originally the comparison is not a recording to recording issue. It is a preference built up over time that indicates that one medium is preferable to you, the listener, over the other. I am also suspicious that both of us lean towards classical music where the difference may well lean away from the digital formats. I wonder if we would draw the same conclusions listening to the stuff the kids listen to these days. Kids that regard rap as old hat. Heavily synthesised - all digitally produced, special effect ladden music may well be better suited to digital media for all i know. Of course the fact their DJs still seem to spin vinyl would argue against that one too - but I think the playing field would be more level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 OK Max, Go to my paper again and read my remark about the Linn LP12 t/t I had, 7 years ago, against the Wadia combo and a tune recorded by Linn. They are equal as far as price more or less. I state there that there was on particular tune that it was better on CD back then. One, only one out of 25!!! (or make it 15 since I didn't have all of them at that time...) I just try to be practical Max, that's why i say "no more technical crap..." As far as music of today's youngsters, well... Thanks, but no thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 >If I don't like a particular song, I have to get up and move the tonearm over to skip it. In addition, phono output is lower and you have noise and feedback to deal with. No thanks you can have it. Thanks, I'll take it... As to your first point, that is a fact. However, since you mentioned DBX I must point out that a properly adjusted (which, granted, takes some experience but is now quite second nature to me) DBX unit both eliminates all but impulse noise as well as allows you to match the level of your other components. Audible feedback I don't got no how... Furthermore, as I mentioned, there is a wealth of great material available only on shellac or vinyl. Some of the great 78's have been transferred, but I've yet to hear one that compares with the real thing. This is no fault of the medium (78 to LP transfers never were any good either), but of the engineering. I've a number of friends who, though not into audio, still love to come over and listen to Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, the Dorseys, Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Hank Williams, Bob Wills and many others in their original glory. I don't force it on them...they actually ASK for it. It's about the music...if I had unlimited funds, I'd have a cylinder player built for the Edison/Columbia cylinders I have. I bet there is some stuff on them not heard in a 100 years. I'd also like to have a player piano for my rolls...now THERE is a digital/analog hybrid that SMOKES! Again, IMOH, there are no inherently superior or inferior media. There is inferior and superior music, inferior and superior performances, and inferior and superior recordings. Then, of course, there is playback... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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