tofu Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 as of now, i have my setup like this: now, it seems logical that the way i have this set up, my sub would only reproduce bass from the right channel. this is obviously not desirable. i'm not sure how i'd go about sending a mono signal to my sub without using a whole bunch of splitters and ultimately degrading sound quality a lot. my sub has speaker wire inputs/outputs, but i'm guessing using that method, unless it's a high quality sub amp (which it is not), would degrade the quality even further than if i was to use a bunch of rca splitters. the only thing i can think of is getting a pre-amp with a sub output, but that's not exactly affordable at the moment. any advice? thanks in advance -chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I use an Outlaw ICBM-1 external crossover. You can get it new for $250 or used for under $200. It has an amazing array of controls, and is really easy to use... and works great. I really recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 there isnt a cheaper way to do this? that $250 can go toward a turntable... i don't exactly need an array of controls. i just want to get a mono signal into my sub without audibly degrading sq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazytubepower Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 custom make a cable to do what you need...look on line to find how to make diy interconnects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 does your sub have high level inputs like this? If so, just run the 1/8">RCA Y cable to the amp, then use speaker wire and have that run to the high-level inputs, then use more speaker wire and use the speaker outputs. The way your sub is set up now, is it's only getting the bass from one channel. You want it to get bass from both. -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 wouldnt using the high level inputs/outputs degrade sound quality A LOT? i don't exactly have a high quality amp for my sub, so i'm sure they cut corners in areas like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Using high level inputs and outputs is not the way to go. I tried doing that, and it took away the soundstage, and the "life" out of the sound. I had a similar dilemma, but eventually I broke down and bought the ICBM. It's certainly not the cheapest piece of equipment, but it's far from being terribly expensive. Check out this Audiogon auction... it's likely not going to go much further than the $155 starting bid. http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?vintelec&1119492403 Other than that, your only alternative is to keep doing what you're doing or purchase a pre-amp with a subwoofer output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted June 19, 2005 Author Share Posted June 19, 2005 well i have a temporary solution until i decide to purchase the icbm. my soundcard seems to output sound to both the wolfson (better dac which is on the rear channels) and the lesser dac (front channels) while in two channel mode. i'm going to have the better dac connect to the amp, and i'll buy a 3.5mm to mono adapter to connect the lesser to the sub. granted, i can't have my mains roll off at a set frequency this way, but it'll have to do for now. i'll eventually need the icbm because the kind of pre-amp i will purchase probably won't have a sub out. edit: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=274-330 <-- this should do the trick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Take the output from your sound card and sent it into the input on your subwoofer (it's an 1/*'s stereo mini cable on both ends right?)...then take the output of the subwoofer and plug it into your amplifier (using that Y-Cable you have). The subwoofer should take care of the crossover for you so you should be all set from here. (do you have any model numbers for us?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 If you don't feel comfortable using the high-level inputs, then do this. Take your main stereo amp, have the 1/8"/RCA y adapter go to your main amp. BIWIRE the amp to your speakers and then to your high-level inputs on the sub. That way your sub can do bass from both channels, the sub doesnt pollute the mains, and the mains get their own happy signal straight from the amp. That really is the cleanest signal path I can think of w/ your setup. Oh, and use NCH Tone Generator, turn off your sub, and use a rat-shack meter or your ears and see where your mains start to fall off in your room. Then set the sub's xover to there. Mine's at 50, the bass isnt boomy but it's really tight and natural when it doesnt majorly overlap on the mains. -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 ---------------- On 6/20/2005 2:10:59 AM Erukian wrote: If you don't feel comfortable using the high-level inputs, then do this. Take your main stereo amp, have the 1/8"/RCA y adapter go to your main amp. BIWIRE the amp to your speakers and then to your high-level inputs on the sub. That way your sub can do bass from both channels, the sub doesnt pollute the mains, and the mains get their own happy signal straight from the amp. That really is the cleanest signal path I can think of w/ your setup. Oh, and use NCH Tone Generator, turn off your sub, and use a rat-shack meter or your ears and see where your mains start to fall off in your room. Then set the sub's xover to there. Mine's at 50, the bass isnt boomy but it's really tight and natural when it doesnt majorly overlap on the mains. -Joe ---------------- i can run two wires from my amp to the sub and speakers without ruining anything? that would be PERFECT. i was wondering if i could do this, but i figured i might fry the amp or something. thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sivadselim Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 ---------------- On 6/19/2005 4:16:26 PM tofu wrote: my sub has speaker wire inputs/outputs, but i'm guessing using that method, unless it's a high quality sub amp (which it is not), would degrade the quality even further......... ---------------- ---------------- On 6/19/2005 10:03:05 PM tofu wrote: wouldnt using the high level inputs/outputs degrade sound quality A LOT? i don't exactly have a high quality amp for my sub, so i'm sure they cut corners in areas like that. ---------------- ---------------- On 6/20/2005 11:14:15 AM tofu wrote: i can run two wires from my amp to the sub and speakers without ruining anything? that would be PERFECT. i was wondering if i could do this, but i figured i might fry the amp or something. thank you very much. ---------------- yes, you can definitely do that, but your speakers will not be crossed-over in that set-up. if you want to cross-over your speakers, just use the sub's high-level inputs/outputs. otherwise, erukian's 2nd recommendation should work fine, too. but you seem to be under the impression that the sub's amp powers the speakers when you use the speaker level inputs/outputs. it doesn't. the sub's amp only powers the subwoofer. the speakers are still powered by your main amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 but you seem to be under the impression that the sub's amp powers the speakers when you use the speaker level inputs/outputs. it doesn't. the sub's amp only powers the subwoofer. the speakers are still powered by your main amplifier. ---------------- no no.. i know the sub's amp wouldnt be powering the speakers, i just assumed the sub's amp's low quality filtering methods would ruin my sound quality. wouldnt it be kind of like sending my signal through a really cheaply built crossover? that can't be good for sq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 ---------------- On 6/20/2005 12:27:58 PM tofu wrote: but you seem to be under the impression that the sub's amp powers the speakers when you use the speaker level inputs/outputs. it doesn't. the sub's amp only powers the subwoofer. the speakers are still powered by your main amplifier. ---------------- no no.. i know the sub's amp wouldnt be powering the speakers, i just assumed the sub's amp's low quality filtering methods would ruin my sound quality. wouldnt it be kind of like sending my signal through a really cheaply built crossover? that can't be good for sq ---------------- You're right. It really does affect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sivadselim Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 ---------------- On 6/20/2005 12:27:58 PM tofu wrote: no no.. i know the sub's amp wouldnt be powering the speakers, i just assumed the sub's amp's low quality filtering methods would ruin my sound quality. wouldnt it be kind of like sending my signal through a really cheaply built crossover? that can't be good for sq ---------------- well, it's just a high-pass filter with a defined roll-off. how "quality" the components of the "crossover" section are in most subs or whether the signal is dirtied very much in passing through that circuitry, i have no idea, really. i don't think what's passed to the speakers ever enters the amp, though. the concerns i've seen expressed regard the degradation in the sub's signal and output when using speaker-level versus line-level connections; a line-level connection is definitely better. but i've never seen much fuss or concern expressed about the quality of the passed signal in a high-level setup, especially when that setup is the only reasonable option. if you want to crossover the speakers, then that's the way i'd do it. otherwise, doing what erukian suggested, connecting both the sub and speakers to the same speaker outputs on the amp, is fine. but, with a mini-plug to mini-plug Y-cable and another mini-plug to RCA Y-cable like you already have, you can accomplish the same thing, yet avoid the sub's high-level inputs and not have to run 2 lengths of speaker wire to your sub. that would only only introduce one more Y into each path and should be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 some subs (like mine -- i think most are as well) are passive crossovers. They try not to alter the amped signal from the main amp. They just take the signal, extract the LFE information from it, then do the bass to wherever you have the xover knob up to. So running your main amp to the high-level inputs then the speaker outputs on the sub, it isnt going to "cut out" the bass on your mains at the crossover point. If your speakers fall off at 50hz, and the sub's xover is at 80hz, you will have overlapping bass. Which isnt a "Good Thing". At least, this is the situation with all the sub's ive looked at. That's why I suggested using a tone generator program w/ the sub off to find where you should set your xover point to. EDIT: I got this quote from Vinny of RedWineAudio in an email. So if your hooking this up to a Tripath amp, be wary!! "The speaker outputs of a Tripath amp are not single-ended, they are bridged (differential). If you were to tie the L and R negative speaker outputs together, it will short out the amp. My guess is that your subwoofer ties these terminals to ground, but via a resistor (not a direct short), so your Teac is not overcurrent/overheating." Make sure your sub's amp has a resistor when it's grounding the negative L and R high-level inputs. So the tripath amp if you have one doesnt overheat. -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 ---------------- On 6/20/2005 11:14:15 AM tofu wrote: i can run two wires from my amp to the sub and speakers without ruining anything? that would be PERFECT. i was wondering if i could do this, but i figured i might fry the amp or something. thank you very much. ---------------- We just had this discussion a while back in another thread, lol. As Erukian mentions, doing what you're suggesting is exactly identical to running the speaker level into the amp and then "connecting your mains to the subwoofer." You're just changing where the split happens (at the amp, or a couple feet down the cable). Electrically both setups are identical. I was originally thinking that your lineout was different in that it provided a high pass for the pre-out on the back...if that's the case, then choosing different methods is just going to depend on how you want to do your bass management. Heck, you could even split the line-level signal to go into the amp and the subwoofer (instead of powering the subwoofer input with your amp's output). Splitting at the line level would actually reduce the circuitry involved in the signal path and it allows you to use any amp that you want. Just make sure your subamp has stereo pre-ins, otherwise you might want to look into a simple special circuit to convert to mono without degrading the signal going to your mains. (Using the speaker level inputs on the sub means you're relying on its built in stereo to mono converter). If you gave us the model number of your sub, we could better tell you how the sub is dealing with the signal so that you can make an informed decision. I personally would prefer to use a built in crossover in the sub because it'd be easier to make a better crossover transition between the mains and the sub...just trying to fill in below 50Hz means you are forced to go with the slope that your mains rolloff at. If your sub's high-pass crossover doesn't rolloff at the same rate, then you're pretty much screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 well, i'm not exactly sure what kind of amp i'm using. i took it off an old subwoofer a while back and it doesnt really have any markings. i used it for my shiva and made an enclosure as per adire's specifications. it's doing okay, and that's probably due to my room only being 11x11. i'm using the high level inputs now. i'm not sure if i'm missing any details or if i'm convincing myself that i am. it's not dramatic enough to tell without switching between configurations a lot which is not something that is easy to do (especially without spades..heh) i think i'll leave it this way for a while until i feel the need to experiment with it more edit: in the back of my mind i keep thinking that channel seperation is not the same.. the sound doesnt seem as enveloping. but then again, i think this could just be my mind telling me that sound quality HAD to take a hit in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Well it's possible that the subwoofer has a crappy stereo to mono converter in it which could be throwing off the amp driving everything. Does your soundcard by chance have a dedicated LFE send? (or a Center/LFE output)? You could probably do all your bass management right at the soundcard (which is what I do right now for my pc setup). I'm not sure how to set the software on your card, but it's gotta be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 yes it does, but to do that i'd have to use the 5.1 setting. the problem with that is, kernel streaming no longer works that way, and i'll need some kind of plugin for foobar to configure the lfe since these drivers don't seem to have any bass management options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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