Thanks to Mike & RTA's

[Coytee]

My thanks to Mike (Mdbse2a3) who came over Saturday to not only listen to Als ES networks, but to also compare the Transcendent SE-OTLs to the Wright 2A3s. He also happened to bring his Berringer eq/RTA.

To my neophyte ears the system sounded fantastic. Mike hooked up his RTA and found a null at approximately 90 hz. He eqd for it and removed most if not all of it. I then heard the room without the null.

I must say, I finally was able to come to grips with how significant that is and just how much that can effect the sound you hear.

I was previously feeling high & smug on how good it sounded and when we did an a/b test with the taken the null out, the whole sound cleaned up in a most noticeable way. It sounded bloated and thick with the null and MUCH more smooth & natural without it.

I got my dbx RTA to see if it would achieve the same thing his Berringer did. It just so happened that the dbx had an eq adjustment right at 90hz so we were in fact able to take it out (Id previously taken any/all outboard items out of the system so Id have just the straight tube/Peach sound).

Today, the dbx is back in the system and yesterday had it on. Even the wife noticed the change in sound, making the comment that although she never thought it sounded bad, she can tell something is different and she now thinks it clearly sounds better. She didnt know what or why though.

Mike has been a trove of information & very helpful to me. Every time hes been over Ive learned something. Each time Ive learned something, the overall sound of my system has improved. Saturday, it improved dramatically, thanks to him.

[Frzninvt]

Yep, that DBX 14/10 can do some really cool things! It is an amazing and functional piece of gear, especially since it can make adjustments in 1db increments. What did Mike think of it?

[sfogg]

Just be careful in trying to fill in nulls. If it is a true room induced null you can't EQ them out as you could keep dumping more and more power into it and it will still null out. You will end up running out of amplifier power, running out of EQ or damaging the speakers and the null will still be there. If you are using 1/3 octave measurements/EQ you might 'hide' the null in the measurements but it would still be there.

Shawn

[Coytee]

At the risk of putting words into his mouth, I'd guess he felt it sounded better with it than without it.

I also put the 5bx back in. If my understanding is correct on how it works (attenuate the soft passages relative to the loud ones, instead of expanding the loud ones), it dawned on me that it might just be a great match for flea tubes (as compared to the older model I had that DID expand and demand a bigger workout from the amp)

I'm still not quite getting it with that impact restoration feature so I'm fiddling about with the controls in general & seeing what happens.

As an aside, that Beringer seemed to be one fancy schmancy eq/rta.

[Coytee]

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On 8/15/2005 12:16:19 PM sfogg wrote:

Just be careful in trying to fill in nulls. If it is a true room induced null you can't EQ them out as you could keep dumping more and more power into it and it will still null out. You will end up running out of amplifier power, running out of EQ or damaging the speakers and the null will still be there. If you are using 1/3 octave measurements/EQ you might 'hide' the null in the measurements but it would still be there.

Shawn

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Perhaps I used the wrong word. It was not a void, but a spike in the curve. We toned it DOWN, as opposed to trying to fill it up.

Interestingly, Mike gave me the same commentary you did about filling the hole, as opposed to cutting the tree.

So, since it was a spike, is it called something different than a null?

[sfogg]

"So, since it was a spike, is it called something different than a null?"

A peak.... those are what EQ can work well on. Just don't overdue it if you are using fairly broad bandwidth EQs as it will effect other areas too.

Shawn

[Frzninvt]

You are correct the 5BX expands downward only, but the impact restoration circuits can expand up to 10db upward so they will use amplifier power. The great thing is on the 5BX all the impact restoration bands are independently adjustable plus there is an overall output level as well so everything can be trimmed to your heart's desire.

[mikebse2a3]

Coytee said:

Perhaps I used the wrong word. It was not a void, but a spike in the curve. We toned it DOWN, as opposed to trying to fill it up.

Interestingly, Mike gave me the same commentary you did about filling the hole, as opposed to cutting the tree.

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Thanks Richard I had a great time and I really appreciate you letting me try the Behringer in your setup. I've been trying to see how it works in as many situations (ROOMS AND SYSTEMS HAVE VARIED ALOT BUT EVERONE OF THEM HAS SHOWN A VERY IMPORTANT IMPROVEMENT IN CLARITY WITH THE EQ AND NOT ONE HAS SHOWN ANY PERCEPTION OF DEGRADING THE SOUND WITH THE EQ) as possible and I've yet to have it not give a very important improvement in any situation yet.

To make sure its clear Richard's listening position that we where using showed a sharp peak at aroud 89Hz and when we removed it with the (PEQ)module of the Behringer the clarity and quality of his sound improved dramatically. What we also noticed was actually anywhere we chose to listen had improved which I didn't expect but it was very obvious.

For anyone interested this is how I did the EQ setup.

So we put the Behringer in and I wanted to keep it simple since we didn't have a lot more time but I believe I found a good way to use the Auto EQ in some situations. First I placed the MIC at the listening position at ear level and removing any frequencies from 100Hz down and Above 5000KHz from the Auto EQ Function and with Room Correction On I let the Auto EQ run its test. By doing this it cleaned the response up enough for me to see that he had a serious room mode at 90Hz so next I reset the GEQ to flat and went to the PEQ Mode and made a notch at 89Hz 1/6 octave wide with -11.5db cut (He HAD A Pretty Sharp Mode Here). Then with the PEQ Module Active I again ran the GEQ Auto EQ function like before and thus letting the PEQ deal with the room mode at 89Hz and the GEQ doing the rest of the correction.

What was very obvious was when you bypassed the Behringer the sound became muddy and the highs seemed to be lacking due I think to the muddy low range which I have begun to notice when you clean up the low end the perception (By Myself And Others Also) is also often made that the highs are better. So after this Richard mentioned that he had a DBX auto analyzing EQ setting stored away and wondered if it might work also. Luckily the DBX EQ(Very Nice Unit) has 14 Bands per channel and one was right at the 90Hz point he needed so he installed it and ran the Auto Analyze function of the DBX and sure enough the unit brought the 90Hz mode down and improved the sound a great deal. I also want to note in this situation as we moved to various locations the sound was improved in every one of those locations and nowhere was it made worse that we could hear.

This took about 20 minutes to do and I believe given more time we would have fine tuned things up even more but I have to say the improvement was very dramatic to me and things sounded so good that I really just wanted to listen and really didn't feel the need to tweek the adjustments anymore again it was very natural sound with wonderfull clarity we where acheiving.

One other note: Another interesting and unexpected side effect of using the EQ in Richard's system was the Transcedent SE-OTL was able to play louder and cleaner with the reductions in Power Required by using the EQs in his system.

Again Thanks Richard for letting me try the EQ in your system/room and Enjoying some wonderfull sound that evening.

mike