Colin Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Krell's Master Reference Subwoofer follows their tradition of concrete heavy amplifiers that exhibit the control of an uptight blue blooded matron. Their Reference Subwoofer is the size and weight of a pirate's chest and with a $28,000 retail price tag requires some serious pirate treasure to obtain. Krell calls it the "worlds ultimate subwoofer." And perhaps it is ... http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/Subwoofer/product_69185.shtml ------------------ horns & subs; lights out & tubes glowing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Colin you should write ProMedia sub reviews and not Krell Master Reference stand up comdey type "review". The fact you gave the lowest overall rating just tells me this "review" is a joke. No please just to amuse some clown go and hatch a review on the Krell FPB600 and say its just a bit better then reciever amps.LOL No serious audiophile will ever trust a site like AudioReview.On AudioReview any Joe Blow can post his "review" about any product and bash the product just because he cant(read will never be able)to buy one(if he will then he/she will have to sell his/her internal organs to doit!) LOL LOL and LOL squared Now dont for get to bash Dynaudio speakers and Celeste MOON power amps.Go and have fun,just know the interested buyer will not read comdy and take it seriously. Even if you say(and I agree)the Krell Master Reference Sub is too expensive and overbuilt it does not mean its a piece of garbage like your rating yould indicate. And FYI the LF10 and KSW200 are no class leaders and never were.My Sunfire Mark II killed the LF10 in a side by side A/B test.Hear that Colin ...I had the Klipsch LF-10 besides the Sunfire Mark II and I was surprised just how superior the Sunfire was,in bass quality and quantity. Just ask yourself why Klipsch discontinued the LF series so fast? HMMMM LOL HMMMM HA HA HA The sub peaked on my my Pimps & Pipes and the amp clipped in a very audible way,the Sunfire never even broke a sweat. If the LF was a leader of anything it would still be in production and in full swing.Klipsch does not remove subs from production so fast for nothing.Look at the KSW series,inexpensive and good,still in production. Nuff said Want to talk subs with me,no problem.I can duke it out with anyone here or any board. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 I was thrilled with the performance of the billeted Krell sub woofer chest. I said it was a great sub. But I rated it the lowest for value, because of its very high price compared to other performance leaders, such "as the KLIPSCH KSW300, MISSION 700as and B&W asw1000 models." I trust individual reviews as much as anyone. What I like is the comparisons to other products, such as your mention of the Sunfire sub. The Krell is no piece of garbage; it is not a good value for the money and its very high price, compared to other subs that almost come close, make it "poor" overall. The LF10 was discontinued for production problems. For $450, I find it to be a great value in a sub. ------------------ horns & subs; lights out & tubes glowing This message has been edited by Colin on 10-01-2001 at 08:19 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 I read Colin's review and two things struck me. One it was an awsome sub and two nearly the same or equal performance can be have for much less. I am jealous as I have never even seen one of these beasts but perhaps that is best so I can still dream of being able to buy one of these rather than an a new car someday. I mean if you can spend $28K on a sub you must be making some phat loot so go ahead an do it. BTW Colin did you actually buy one?? Me I don't make that kind of cash so I limp along with my little ole $400 SVS enjoying, it would seem, nearly the same quality of bass. Go figure As far as the opinions on Audioreview go I don't agree with TheEar. I think that they are useful in getting a general idea of the quality of a product. But hey I am just a poster on an internet audio BB so that means my opinion should be worth what humm dunno 0.02?? Laters, ------------------ FOR SALE OR TRADE COMPLETE R*3 SYSTEM FOR 3 HERESY'S Main System - Cornwalls (L/R main) RC-3 RS-3's (white) SVS 20-39CS Harman Kardon AVR 510 Hafler P505 (running sub) ProMedia 4.2 v400 for PC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 " performance leaders, such "as the KLIPSCH KSW300, MISSION 700as and B&W asw1000 models." " LOL Again this joke,you should be a standup comic Colin! Since when the KSW300,Mission 700as or the B&W ASW1000 are class leaders? You read too much Stereo Review,this TP publication mag can only serve as TP replacement.It only clogs the drain! I will give you true performance leaders...Velodyne HGS18,Revel B15,Aerial Acoustics SW12,SVS Ultra(pair with Samson amp)and the Sunfire Signature.Each would make your performance leaders sound like anemic tweeters. LOL And the value leaders are HSU and SVS.End of story. The Krell MRS when compared against a single sub from ANY company leaves them in the dust.The single fact it can top 120dB(per sub)in room @ 20Hz is unmatched by amy sub,the impact will also make your performance leaders sound like supertweeters. LOL Subs are about moving air,lots of it.And with two 15" drivers with 3 inches of peak to peak(each) you just cant claim a single 15" driver with under 1.5" peak to peak can even come close.To top this the amps used are worlds apart in quality and bass control. LOL Not at all impressed Colin. Now go post a Krell Master Reference Amp review and claim the $1000 jobber comes close. MUA HA HA HA HA HA In closing I have to point yet again AudioReview is not to be taken seriously,inexpensive boomy subs get perfect scores and high-end get bottom scores from bums who are just pissed they are so far behind in performance! TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Flash update On AudioReview there are too many "hate" reviews posted by owners of cometitive brands who just love to bash(like the BASH amps!)the competition to try and make them look bad.And you will see many posting TWO and THREE or even more times FIVE STAR reviews. Not trustworthy at all,and a review sould be posted by an owner or a person who tested the gear at home not only claims to listen in some store. With this in mind you eliminate a solid 50% of "reviews" on AudioReview.And most know where the A in audio is! TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacevedo Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Maybe when compared against a single sub, the Krell will win - but I think the whole point is price vs. performance. For $28K, you could get several RSW15s (or HGS18s)- and beat the crap out of that single Krell. I think that the Krell would probably be an awesome sub - but for 28 grand! Come on - there are much better ways to spend that kind of money to get good bass! The only reason it would be worthwile is if you didn't have space for multiple subs - but if you are going to spend $28k for one sub - you might as well have the room torn down and rebuilt to support multiple subs, and buy the subs, and still have some $$$ left over to rent some good DVD's! This is my opinion of course! Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Bacevedo this may be THE reason why some audiophiles with plenty of green buy the Krell MRS. The Krell MRS is the most compact way to get all the bass a sane and insane person would like to get in a very compact package.Its like a super Sunfire Signature on sterioids. And again look at the built quality,its second to none,no matter what the others claim,the cabinet is so inert even at wall cracking levels the cabinet does not resonate or vibrate(small vibrations dont bring any audible colorations)! Yes the MRS is not a great value,heck its expensive,damn expensive.Even I will not spend as much on a sub(any sub).Still the MRS is the benchmark for any compact sub at any price.Its performance and quality considering the size has no equal. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 2, 2001 Author Share Posted October 2, 2001 gee, Ear, we almost agree:"When so many top-of-line, state-of-the-art musical components claim to open new doors and create new vistas for tweaking audiophiles to explore, the Krell monster reference sub does just that" ... ------------------ horns & subs; lights out & tubes glowing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 >>>The Krell MRS is the most compact way to get all the bass a sane and insane person would like to get in a very compact package.Its like a super Sunfire Signature on sterioids.<<< The krell takes up a 20x30" footprint. Dual HSG15s would take up a couple of inches more and dual HGS18s would take up another foot(about 20x40"). Since the HGS's would have the additional benefit of a stacking type configuration...the claimed advantages to the krell don't seem to fit at all. And dual CS_Ultras would take up less floor space then this *mini* Krell too. >>>And again look at the built quality,its second to none,no matter what the others claim,the cabinet is so inert even at wall cracking levels the cabinet does not resonate or vibrate(small vibrations dont bring any audible colorations)!<<< Is there any documented evidence that this enclosure design actually enhances performance in any way? >>>Yes the MRS is not a great value,heck its expensive,damn expensive.Even I will not spend as much on a sub(any sub).Still the MRS is the benchmark for any compact sub at any price.Its performance and quality considering the size has no equal.<<< And this statement is based on what...the price? I have not seen the SLIGHTEST bit of objective performance data on the Krell.....ANYWHERE. Some nice marketing stuff on the website of course.. 120dB/20hz... In what,a coffin? A typical HT room? Groudplane? Anechoic? What was the distance between the sub and the measurement mic? 1 Inch? 10 feet? Unless you know...it's meaningless. What type of signal was used to produce the 20hz? What was the measured THD at this output level? 3" peak to peak? That sounds impressive until you remember it's the LINEAR excursion travel of the driver that's the important part. And just because a driver is capable of *X* amount of linear excursion certainly doesn't mean it's going to be capable of that excursion in a given design. 2600w sounds impressive too,until you consider the dual HGS woofs would match that. Besides without knowing the details of the design..and how much EQ is required to maintain a flat freq response down low for the Krell...you really dont know how that 2600w might relate to actual performance. If the krell needed 6dB of boost down low(somewhat conservative guess?)...you're effectively reducing the amp headroom by 75% in the EQs range. So instead of 2600w...it's 650w now. I'd like to see what dual KSW15s/Dual HGS18s/dual CS_Ultras might do in a showdown against the Krell...I think the outcome might surprise some of the country-club crowd. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacevedo Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 TV - I couldn't agree with you more! What makes me laugh, too, is that people think just because someone is rich, that they will spend foolishly. That isn't necessarily true. Yes there are some who just like to flaunt their money (usually young trust fund babies who don't know any better), but for the most part, wealthy people want a good value, too! They didn't get wealthy by spending every dime they made! Money is not the measurement to use when measuring quality. Money is arbitrary. Things are priced based on what the market will bear (well usually), and it doesn't mean anything about the performance of the product. If there is a value in your mind that you will pay for something, then that is what it is worth, regardless of how much it cost to make it. You want to see more about pricing, check out the company I work for http://www.khimetrics.com. We use quantum physics to model pricing vs. demand and psychological effects and then optimize the entire product line. Pretty cool stuff. A little off topic, I know, but kind of pertinent to this discussion of a very overpriced sub. I wonder how many they have sold? Some food for thought! Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 wonder too the direct cost (material, labor & direct overhead) of that krell. my guess is around $7k w/ approx 100% mark-up to dealer & 100% to customer. tv, could u again put up the most recent nousaine SPL data? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 "country-club crowd" LOL And again you try stick a "country-club" label on TheEAR(s),how charming.FYI I dont belong with these posers and clowns.If I did I would never ... EVER...post on this board and own a single Klipsch speaker! Most subs use the EQ to boost the lower spectrum,and the HGS18 must make very heavy use of it.To go down to a claimed 15Hz the boost must be way more than 6dB. I see how badly you want to "anihalate" the Krell MRS, its normal you are in the sub business.Any company has the right to claim fame and disect the numbers claimed by the competition.And all claim to be world leaders at someting(LOL). The Krell MRS(your fave sub )is not a real danger for your products.Its a showcase of the extreme,with a extreme pricetag.Not real good value then. Why bash the bold BASHless Krell MRS so bad? Its not the first time I see this,agressive impulses towards THE LEADER IN AUDIO ENGINEERING. Some even say Krell amps are so unmusical they only sound good with techno!LOL The same crowd also has Mark Levinson and claims world greatness(the real country-club crowd!).And then some say Dynaudio speakers have poor detail and weak bass,these used $99 recievers and think piezo electric tweeters sound great in general! TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacevedo Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 What - piezo electric is bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 yea theears, piezo, dat funny...3 words- Walsh Super Tweeter ever hear of that 1? just curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Super tweeter! LOL I dont need no super duper tweters when I have Dynaudio Esotec(Contour series)and Scan Speak Revelators(nOrh 9.0 )in speakers. Super tweeter...LOL And where is the suppa woofa? LOL Too much just too much. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 ears, well u know it's not on my klipsch the walsh super tweeter sat atop my Infinity 2000 i had from age 14-20 (couldn't afford the cornwalls til then). it was 360 degree ice-cream cone lookin thing. did put out some omnidirectional super highs whenever a synthesizer let loose (not real often). i blew out every component in those infinity eventually as the 1.5A fuses were replaced by car fuses after i got tired of replacing 1.5A fuses constantly. after getting cornwalls i realized the infinity were total tune coloring junk heaps. but hey at the time i thought they sounded great & looked groovy. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front) (2)KLF C7 (front center & rear center) Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Marantz SR-8000 receiver Acurus A200X5 power amp Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box Monster HTS2500 & HTS1000 powercenters Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3, RC-3 Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Technics dual cassette deck rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I dont have much time to keep it updated the way I used too...but this should be fairly recent, this is objective data gathered using repeatable methods. In *hotrodding* terms, this list would be actual 1/4 mile timeslips.(instead of listening to the typical chromed-out pretty boys talking about how their new fuzzy dice...) --------------------------------------------- the first figure(for each subwoofer) is for a corner loaded subwoofer, 2 meter SPL mic distance,10% distortion limit,and the SPLs have been averaged from the maximum output at 1/3octave spacing at 25/31/40/50/63hz. Any additional numbers represent the lower extension of the subwoofer...and it's capabilities toward the bottom end. ( * ) denotes a manual data adjustment applied by myself to compensate the subwoofer from Nousaine's *small* room(2200) to his newer *large* room(7500). SVS Dual 20-39cs/600w package 115.5 /20hz~97dB / 25hz ~111.8dB / 31hz ~120.9dB(124dB peaks). STRYKE HE15 proto-type 115.3 / 16hz~99 25hz~106 VELODYNE F1800 - 111.9 SV 20-39cs(W/300 watts)109.5 / 20hz~91 / 25hz~105.8 VELODYNE FSR15 - 109.1 / 16hz~90.1 / 25hz~103.1 VELODYNE HGS15 - 107.7 / 16hz~89.1 Paradigm PW2200 - 107.4 / 20hz~84 / 25hz ~104dB (112.8dB peak) Paradigm Servo15 - 107.3 / 27hz VELODYNE SPL12 - 107.1 / 20hz ~90 /25hz ~ 99 HSU RESEARCH TN25(w/250w) - 107.1 / 30hz HSU RESEARCH VTF-2 - 107.1 / 20hz~93/25hz~99dB Cerwin Vega cvt300s - 107 / 16hz~80db / 20hz~92(112.4dB peak) KLIPSCH KSW300 - 106.0 / 25hz~92 * Cerwin Vega LW12 - 106.0 / 20hz~89 POLK 650 -105.9 / 25hz~90 Infinity 1.2s - 105.5 / 20hz ~90 / 25hz~95 BW asw1000 - 105.4 / 25hz~92.4 * MK mx125 mkII - 105.3 / 20hz 89 / 25hz 95 VELODYNE ct150 - 105.3 / 20hz~82(111.4dB peak) JBL D112 - 105.2 / 25hz~95 Boston Acoustics PV800 - 104.4 / 20hz~85 DT PF15TL+ - 104 / 20hz~88 MISSION 700ASi - 104 / 20hz~82 Infinity MSW1- 104 /20hz~79 Phase Technology PC500(towers) - 103.6 Infinity interlude100 - 103.5 / 25hz ~ 94 BW asw2000 - 103 / 29hz * PSB Subsonic6 - 102.7 / 25hz~94 Sound Dynamics rts1200 - 102.1 / 25hz~92(110.9dB peak) Infinity IL100s - 102dB / 25hz ~94dB VELODYNE ct120 - 101 / 20hz~87 MK - mx105 -100.6 / 25hz~86 ATLANTIC TECH 272 PBM - 100.5 / 20hz~85 INFINITY hps250 - 100.2 / 25hz~82(112.8dB peak) KLIPSCH LF10 - 100.1 / 25hz~90 KLIPSCH KSW12 - 100 / 25hz~90 /20hz~ 70 PSB subsonic 3i - 100 / 28hz * MISSION ms70asa - 100/32hz~92 SUNFIRE Jr. - 100 / 25hz~95 VELODYNE VLF810 - 100 / 25hz~91 Canbridge - 100 / 20hz ~82 POLK PSW350 - 99.8 / 25hz~82 VELODYNE FSR12 - 99.7 / 20hz JAMO E 8sub - 99 / 25hz~ 86 VELODYNE VA1012 - 99 / 29hz JBL PB10 - 99 / 25hz 82 POLK RMDS-1 - 98.6 / 25hz- 77 VELODYNE FSR10 - 98.4 / 20hz BW asw2500 - 98 / 25hz~86 /20hz~79 ENERGY ES12xl - 98 / 28hz * Paradigm PDR10 - 98 / 25hz PHASE tech power8 - 98 / 25hz~84 Polk psw250 - 97.3 / 32hz~91 ATHENA S3 - 97.0 / 25hz~87 Energy S8.2 - 97 / 25hz ~82 VELODYNE CT80 - 97.0 / 25hz~81 MIRAGE frx s10 - 97 / 25hz~84 JAMO sw505 - 97 Klispch KSW10 - 96.9 / 25hz~85 TANNOY PS110 - 96.8 / 20hz~71 / 25hz~84 CANTON AS25 - 96.8 / 25hz~80 MK V-1250thx - 96 / 25hz~86 Atlantic technology 4.5 - 96 / 25hz~82 ATHENA S2 - 96 / 25hz~87 ACI titan - 96dB / 25hz~80 PSB alphasubzero - 95.2 / 32hz~88 Aura Lss-107A - 95.2 / 25hz~73 Celestion cswII - 95 / 25hz~78 Paradigm 90P(towers) - 95 / 20hz GALLO MPS-150 - 95.0 / 25hz~86 ENERGY ENCORE - 94.4 / 25hz~78 ENERGY XL8 - 94 / 25hz~78 POLK PS-120 - 94 / 32hz -no SPL given Wharfedale Modus - 93.1dB DEF TECH BP2002TL Tower - 92.3 / 25hz ~80(single tower) Paradigm PD8 91.4 / 25hz~73dB MK k9 - 90.1 / 25hz~77 Cerwin Vega hts15 - 89 (107 from 40-100hz) / 39hz DEF TECH Pro Tower400 - 89 / 25hz~81d (single tower) DEF TECH BP 2006TL Tower - 88.4 / 25hz ~73(single tower) ATHENA P1 88.5/ 32hz~85.5 -----------the following use a 25-50hz range---------- Boston Acoustics VR2000 -109dB Hsu Research 12V (150w) -106.5dB / 25hz - no SPL given Cerwin Vega HT-PWR12 -105.9dB / 25hz - no SPL given BW asw800 -105.1dB / 26hz - no SPL given Klipsch SW12 series2 -104.6dB ~(32-50hz) / 32hz - no SPL given ADS ms3 -104dB Phase Technology 1.0 Octave -103.3dB / 25hz -no SPL given Velodyne VA-1215x -102.6dB / 25hz - no SPL given BAGEND 18" -102.5dB * MK MX-125 101.8 - dB / 25hz - no SPL given TRIAD Silver - 100.2dB / 25hz - no SPL given PBS Subsonic III - 100.1dB / 25hz - no SPL given SUNFIRE <100dB MK V75 MarkII -98.1dB Allison NL-5400P -96.4dB / 25hz -no SPL given Altec Lansing PSW10 -95.5dB /32hz - no SPL given KEF 30B AV - 93.5 dB ~(32-50hz) / 32hz - no SPL given ---the following use a 31hz to 63hz range.--- Boston Acoustics cr400 - 99dB / 25hz - no SPL given Paradigm PS-1200 -98dB / 25hz~91.4dB ** Phase Technology power10 -98dB / 25hz-no SPL given Acoustic Research S12ho - 97dB / 32hz-no SPL given Mirage PS-12 - 96dB / 32hz -no SPL given Sound Dynamics RTS-800 - 95dB / 32hz~92dB MK vx-7 - 89dB / 32hz-no SPL given Audiosource SW eleven - 88dB / 32hz~78dB ---the following use a 31hz to 80hz range.--- POLK psw150 - 105.4dB MB Quart D1200si - 104dB NHT sw 1p - 101.9dB BOSE am15 bass module - 100dB / 32hz ~97dB INFINITY BU120 - 100dB / 32hz~90dB MIRAGE PS-8 - 99dB / 32hz~90.7dB Sound Dynamics rts800 - 98dB PSB Subsonic 1 - 97dB Paradigm LEGEND tower(10"-100w built-in sub) -93.1dB NOUSAINE's IB design - (12-63hz) - 120dB The four DIY setups NOUSAINE reviewed in the JAN-1999 AUDIO...(all 25-63hz) RK(4-18s) - 126dB TH(4-15s) - 116dB RP(2-18s) - 107dB TP(8-12s) - 123dB ------------------- TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Very incomplete to say the least! Where is the... Sunfire Signature Sunfire Mark II Revel B15 Aerial Acoustics SW12 The only Sunfire in the list is the 9" cube Junior!? The Junior is far from even a Mark II or a Signature. The Signature will put out almost as much as a HGS18 around 25-30Hz.Strange its not even on this wonderful list. Where is the Revel B15? Hmmm missing! This sub has more output then a HGS18 around 25-30Hz!Where is it? Maybe I invented this sub,hmmmm. Where is the impressive SVS Ultra? Incomplete list TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I am inpressed by one thing here Mr TV,you beat your arch rival HSU.I have to give you this,your subs are very impressive. Then lets just leave it at that. I have to pleasure "defending" The Krell MRS(since I will probably never own one...$35000 US ! DOH ) Your SVS Cylinder series and Ultra are in my price bracket.The MRS is not. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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