Finally tried out the 3 KT-LCR's with Chorus II's

[T2K]

A new member here posted recently about his desire for Chorus II's. I responed to his post and he's coming Saturday to check them out. Which finally prompted myself to try out the 3 Klipsch KT-LCR's that I have mentioned owning with the Chorus II's that I own that have been sitting idle for a year or two.

I decided that I would wire the Chorus II's in the front L & R position and an LCR in the center and L/R surround positions. I use a Denon 3801 for a preamp with an Acurus 125x5 in a 5.1 configuration. My other Acurus 100x3 and my KSP-S6's are and have been in storage. My living room is full of furniture and I decided long ago that I was unwilling to sacrifice the living room look/feel for that of a sound room. So I do the best that I can for speaker positioning.

Wired them up and popped a Santana CD in my Denon 3300 DVD player. Sounded better than I thought. Nice natural bass and those hard to find elsewhere sparkling Klipsch mids. The Chorus II's sounded more 'balanced' than they did when I used a less expensive receiver in the past. The thought entered my mind that hey, why not wire up the 2 rarely used Klipsch SW12II subs. Blew the dust off them and quickly dialed them into the mix. Carlos sounded better.

I decided I would get out a few DVD's for more fun. While listening to the Eagles 'Hell Freezes over' DVD the thought crossed my mind that I hadn't even thought about the center LCR timbre match with the Chorus II's, which was the reason that I originally started. I got up and stuck my big old ear about 6" from the center LCR and all I could hear was Henley's voice. I did hear faint background music, not much and very low, which was probably bleed thru. Sat back down and tried out Roy Orbison and Allison Krauss DVD's. Kept forgetting that I was experimenting because I was enjoying the music so much. The wife even decided to sit down and listen, so I asked for her keen hearing help.

Things I/we noticed: The LCR's worked very well for center and surround duty. The Chorus I's would probably be much better (we'll try those out tommorrow) but the LCR's did not fal short nor were they drowned out by the front Chorus II's (I listened to the above material both in 5-channel stereo and DTS). The large tractrix in the LCR's gave no hint of dropping in output as I bent over and wandered around the 16' wide room side to side. The 2 SW12II's set at about 45hz reinforced the low output of the Chorus II fronts very well. Overall I would say the Chorus II fronts- LCR's in center and surround position- and 2 SW 12II subs make a HT setup that I would be proud of. I almost hate to sell them now.

The primary reason for this post is this: there is no perfect center. Even an identical speaker in center position will not always perfectly match identical speakers in other positions. The holy center grail does not exist. The value of the Academy is inflated because of the holy grail mindset. Those of you that are willing to judge a speaker on its merits rather than its hype have other less expensive options.

Keith

[Chris Robinson]

The primary reason for this post is this: there is no perfect center. Even an identical speaker in center position will not always perfectly match identical speakers in other positions. The holy center grail does not exist. The value of the Academy is inflated because of the holy grail mindset. Those of you that are willing to judge a speaker on its merits rather than its hype have other less expensive options.

Keith

Keith,

A while back I posted some similar sentiments. I owned an LCR for a center for a while and found it to be quite pleasing. I was very impressed with the Tractrix's performance between two Cornwalls. It wasn't until I tried a lone Belle in that position did the LCR come out of the setup.

I like mixing things up on occasion. The Belle, once the kitchen and family room is redone, will reside between two Klipschorns and some Heresy rears. I'd put the CW's back there but they are really massive and may be a bit overwhelming for the room. Besides, I'd have to pull them out of my 2-channel system up in the "Man Cave" and that would be sad []

[T2K]

Good Morning to you Chris. I thought that it was you that spoke of the KT-LCR about 2 years ago. I'm about to go to work now but I can say that the new member here did have Klipschorns and recently sold them. He did like the Chorus/LCR combo apparently because he bought bought both the Chorus and the Chorus II's I had along with the 3 KT-LCR's and a sub. The setup sounds great with the less than perfect room setup for the speakers. The LCR's kept up pretty well with the Chorus II's and the vocals using the LCR center was surprising to me. More later.

Keith

[jerohm]

...

The primary reason for this post is this: there is no perfect center. Even an identical speaker in center position will not always perfectly match identical speakers in other positions. The holy center grail does not exist. The value of the Academy is inflated because of the holy grail mindset.

...

Keith

I believe a center speaker with identical drivers and crossover as the mains mounted such that the remote could control the height and angle would come pretty damn close to the holy grail.

[IndyKlipschFan]

We all differ from time to time.. I guess I will disagree....

The perfect match IS a left, center, and right speaker that is ALL THE SAME.

It not only makes sense... Just about 9 out of 10 also agree when they try it too. (Yes, you may still need subs, but you get my jest.) The seamlessness of a pan or action going from left, to center, to right is best if everything is the same...

Think of it this way, a movie theater to my knowledge does not have a different center, Why would you compromise your own if you have an option.. IMO this is the only reason the semi good..(even hard to call good) Bose systems often for a lot of Americans... They "feel right... to them"..... Why ??? Even a sub par system again using all the same speakers will sound smoother and less fatiguing to you..

My guess is something was wrong with one of your up front three... Speakers... Or set up wrong..

OR... Your just 1 out of those 10?????

[T2K]

...

The primary reason for this post is this: there is no perfect center. Even an identical speaker in center position will not always perfectly match identical speakers in other positions. The holy center grail does not exist. The value of the Academy is inflated because of the holy grail mindset.

...

Keith

I believe a center speaker with identical drivers and crossover as the mains mounted such that the remote could control the height and angle would come pretty damn close to the holy grail.

I have KSP's now. The center is pretty much the same configuration as the mains less the 15" sub. The best center match I have ever heard.

I think you're right. Close is about all you'll ever get, when the word perfect is used.

Keith

[T2K]

We all differ from time to time.. I guess I will disagree....

The perfect match IS a left, center, and right speaker that is ALL THE SAME.

It not only makes sense... Just about 9 out of 10 also agree when they try it too. (Yes, you may still need subs, but you get my jest.) The seamlessness of a pan or action going from left, to center, to right is best if everything is the same...

Think of it this way, a movie theater to my knowledge does not have a different center, Why would you compromise your own if you have an option.. IMO this is the only reason the semi good..(even hard to call good) Bose systems often for a lot of Americans... They "feel right... to them"..... Why ??? Even a sub par system again using all the same speakers will sound smoother and less fatiguing to you..

My guess is something was wrong with one of your up front three... Speakers... Or set up wrong..

OR... Your just 1 out of those 10?????

I'll make it short and sweet and leave out the details that we already know. I agree that there may be circumstances where 3 identical speakers MAY be used up front. Problem is that in many instances that is not possible in most average home theaters. As an example I'll refer to the setup I spoke of earlier. The L/R Chorus were set up in my room where the right front was within a foot or so of the right wall. The left front was far from any wall. When listening to a CD or DVD the right speaker sounded more prominent than the left, because of the boundry. That could be adjusted somewhat, but the needed adjustment varied from CD to CD. I imagine this happens in many home theater rooms, except for those that have a room large enough whereas boundries did not come into play.

Also, in my experience I have noticed improved dialogue intelligeability with a small center, or one that is cut via crossover higher than the capability of lets say what is commonly referred to as a full range speaker. Many here have repeated over and over the old worn phrase that the center speaker is the most important speaker in a HT setup. What about this: as mentioned earlier an identical drivered speaker that is capable of playing the frequencies required to reproduce dialogue, cut below that point via crossover with information below that of dialogue routed to the left and right front. What would be lost? Placement of center information? That information would have routed to the left and right front speakers, with that information creating a centered image. Information placed via the mix to the left or right front channel only would still be played only by that speaker.

The low end blurs dialogue in my experience, both when using a large identical center and also when using a 'matching' small center along with a center sub.

The beauty of my recent experience is this. The buyer owns an Academy that he bought new to use with the KHorns he owned and he promised that he would 'A-B' the Academy and LCR in the center position with the Chorus and give an honest personal opinion of each speakers performance. So at least maybe some here will benefit from his findings and perhaps learn something. Maybe an alternative to the high cost Academy can be had. Personally, I could care less.

Keith

[T2K]

We all differ from time to time.. I guess I will disagree....

The perfect match IS a left, center, and right speaker that is ALL THE SAME.

It not only makes sense... Just about 9 out of 10 also agree when they try it too. (Yes, you may still need subs, but you get my jest.) The seamlessness of a pan or action going from left, to center, to right is best if everything is the same...

Think of it this way, a movie theater to my knowledge does not have a different center, Why would you compromise your own if you have an option.. IMO this is the only reason the semi good..(even hard to call good) Bose systems often for a lot of Americans... They "feel right... to them"..... Why ??? Even a sub par system again using all the same speakers will sound smoother and less fatiguing to you..

My guess is something was wrong with one of your up front three... Speakers... Or set up wrong..

OR... Your just 1 out of those 10?????

Oh yeah, I just love the way you set parameters. Problem is, 9 out of 10 people don't know what the hell they're talking about. My HT room measures 16' x 20'. The last theater room I was in measured about 60' x120'. I'm talking HOME THEATER here.

Keith

[colterphoto1]

"Also, in my experience I have noticed improved dialogue intelligeability with a small center, or one that is cut via crossover higher than the capability of lets say what is commonly referred to as a full range speaker. Many here have repeated over and over the old worn phrase that the center speaker is the most important speaker in a HT setup. What about this: as mentioned earlier an identical drivered speaker that is capable of playing the frequencies required to reproduce dialogue, cut below that point via crossover with information below that of dialogue routed to the left and right front. What would be lost? Placement of center information? That information would have routed to the left and right front speakers, with that information creating a centered image. Information placed via the mix to the left or right front channel only would still be played only by that speaker.

The low end blurs dialogue in my experience, both when using a large identical center and also when using a 'matching' small center along with a center sub."

I agree with this in theory except for one fine point. Remember these are discrete audio channels. When the director and sound mixer do the mix, they rarely place important dialog in the center channel at the same moment as heavy bass sound effects.

I respectfully think that all speakers should be as full range as possible. If a sound effect goes across the front of the soundstage, I don't want it lacking for bass as it crosses center. Likewise if a starship or jet comes from behind overhead, it should retain it's rumble as it zooms into the distance in front of the viewer. Loud, low effects like this rarely occur onscreen simultaneously with dialog. Using a smaller center speaker (unless one is required for size requirement) therefore shortchanges some of the sound field.

I prefer to keep Cornwalls set to large all the way around, with a smaller subwoofer than most would prefer. I do, afterall, have 5x 15" woofers pumping away. I find the level of LF 'rumble' played in some HT setups unatural and distracting, as it calls too much attention to itself.

Michael

[IndyKlipschFan]

nevermind Keith...

[DrWho]

The low end blurs dialogue in my experience,

both when using a large identical center and also when using a

'matching' small center along with a center sub.

Buy a better sub that you don't have to turn up as much to hear the

very low information and perhaps look into acoustical treatment. Low

end does not blur dialogue...unctrolled bass management does. There is

no way that a speaker with a larger bandwidth can hurt the sound unless

the mixer was an idiot...but if that's the case then you have a lot

more problems. If the mixer wanted less low frequency in the center

channel to avoid blurring the signal then he would have done

that...thing is there isn't anything there to blur the signal so

there's gotta be something wrong on your end of the spectrum.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Buy a better sub that you don't have to turn up as much to hear the very low information and perhaps look into acoustical treatment. Low end does not blur dialogue...unctrolled bass management does. There is no way that a speaker with a larger bandwidth can hurt the sound unless the mixer was an idiot...but if that's the case then you have a lot more problems. If the mixer wanted less low frequency in the center channel to avoid blurring the signal then he would have done that...thing is there isn't anything there to blur the signal so there's gotta be something wrong on your end of the spectrum.

---

Thank you!!! Dr Who.. Maybe coming from YOU rather than me.. he just might listen some?

[soupamoto]

Hello! I'm the above mentioned newbie and new owner of Keith's former Chorus, Chorus II, KT-LCRs, and SW12 sub.

Man, ya'll should have seen that mini-van! It looked like I'd died and gone to Klipsch heaven!

I can't even begin to add anything to this conversation about what the right, or best combinations are... but, as Keith mentioned, I can shed some light on what is NOT right...

Yes, I owned K'horns for over 15 years. I started Klipsch life in the mid 80's with a set of KG4, then Heresy, then Forte. I did the 'trade up' thing at my local dealer when I was in college.

When graduation came, I was moving away and had to either stick with the set I had or go all the way and trade in my current models for the horns. I ordered a set of Klipschorns in 1988.

(FYI keith, I told you I had briefly owned Chorus back then. Well, I dug out my old receipts, and I was wrong. I was going to trade my Forte's for Chorus and skipped them and went to the K;horns, that's why I couldn't remember if Iiked the Chorus as much as I did the Forte's).

The thing that bit me in the *** was a short few years later Home Theater "boomed" (pun intended) and I got that bug as well. Well, for the past 15 years or so I've struggled to find suitable matches for surround and center to go with my K'horns (and living room, and family, and budget, etc.).

Until a couple weeks ago I had failed miserably.

I tried KG4's in the back and never even heard them when paird with the K'horns! I upgraded that to Klipsch inwalls simply because they could be positioned 3 feet from my head rather than 6 or 7 feet away. I think I heard rear effects from them once or twice...

I have an Academy for the center. It was dwarfed by the Horns. Never did I acheive any sort of balance. Ya, I maybe should have got some Heresey's or something for center/surround, but...

You know, I was never really happy with my K'horns. My room (and adult family lifestyle) was never big enough for the K'horns. Not to mention the base was better in my car then it was in my livling room. Not even my own SW12 matched the K'horns right.

So, a coworker talked me out of my Horns (didn't take much convincing, just wads of cash). Now, I could finally start from scratch and put together a balanced, matched, HT using the more User-Friendly Heritage speakers.

Yep, I have a pile of Chorus, Chorus II, Acadamy, KT-LCRs, SW12 subs, inwalls, and, it looks like a set of Walnut Oil Forte' II are heading my way this weekend (I had an itchy Buy-It-Now finger on eBay...).

Based on the "Demo" at Keith's house with the Chorus II and KT-LCR (and Chorus for a while), and what little experimenting I've been able to do this week after work, I am supremely confidient I'll end up with a FAR superior HT set up than I had before, and for about the same end money as what I had in my K'horns.

But, that's just me talkin'...

D

[Coytee]

Hi D, (Soupamoto)

I'm in Knoxville too. Live in Greenback & work in west Knox near Calhouns on Kingston. Like your bike picture... I had & sold a 1983 Maico 490 about a year ago.

Got it as a basketcase & restored it to 100% function (didn't make it pretty, but made it mechanically correct for farm riding)

Kind of hated to see it go but at least I've now had one of my childhood dreams (any big Maico).

Welcome to the forum

Richard

[T2K]

Original point was this: the KT-LCR with minimal prior re-adjustment of parameters of my dialed in settings in the front end was pleasing in my trial setup. May be a worthwhile alternative to the Academy.

Proper adjustment and bass management should handle pans across the front three.

After listening to bookshelf speakers and later larger speakers in various positions, the one word that comes to my mind regarding smaller speakers in a HT setup as opposed to larger speakers is the word 'articulation'. Net thought from my experience and perhaps a fun face off challenge would be 2 HT setups, one consisting of small speakers and subs and another HT setup using large full-range speakers and a sub/s. I think one would come away with the sense of clarity from the individual locations in the small speaker setup, which is exactly what I am trying to describe here.

I haven't seen or heard the Klipsch THX Ultra2 system but to me, it sounds like the ticket man.

Keith

[T2K]

Hey D !

I checked out the Forte's you bought. The seller has a known good track record so they should be nice.

I imagine you'll wind up with a killer setup once you decide what speakers you're going to use. I thought that the Chorus II's and the 2 subs paired up well here at my house. The Forte's will have more bass and you'll notice that immediately. Give the Chorus II's some time, if you're going to use a sub/subs I think the Chorus II's will get the edge.

Keep me posted on your thoughts once you get the amp and the Forte II's.

Keith

[soupamoto]

Hey Richard,

Wow, Greenback! I could hit you with my empty beer bottle from my house (though I would never do such a thing...)!

Thanks for the pic complement. Yep, that is actually me (well, 60 more lbs of me than I am today, I'm proud to say!).

I actually live in Lenoir City. North side, near Melton Hill Dam.

A Maico, huh?! Wow, where the heck did you find that? Surely you didn't live in good 'ol Greenback when you had that?

I have a bit of a unique dirt bike as well; a '99 TM 300 Enduro. No, not a KTM (though I have a couple of those as well), a TM from Italy. It's fun.

Maybe we can hook up some time and talk dirt bikes while drooling over klipsch speakers. What a crazy night that would be, huh?!

Keith, sorry to digress on your original topic! Just getting to know the bunch and introducing myself.

D

a.k.a. soupamoto

[soupamoto]

Hi ya Keith!

Hehe, thanks for checking the Forte II sale. Man, that guy has been AWESOME. He HAND DELIVERED the Forte' II's..... to Tennessee from Rohde Island! He was "passing through" anyway, but he certianly didn't have to do that. I'm going to have to come up with an extra-special Positive Feedback for him. wow.

Ya, I'm loving this. I did a prelim Chorus and Chorus II evaluation last night. Jolene said she fell in love with the Chorus II the moment I turned them on. I wasn't quite as sure, and didn't have time to go back to the Chorus. Maybe there was some 'clarity' missing on the II.... not sure. I know that may not make sense. That will get revisited.

Tonight I have the Forte' II and Chorus II in a head-to-head battle. A little Peter Gabriel and some Chris Rhea are the weapons.

First thoughts? The Forte' II and Chorus II are IDENTICAL, if you turn the volume up 5 notches on the Forte' II... go from C to F and the sound goes a little flat... go back and the sound is bigger. But, adjust the volume up on the F to compensate for the efficiency of the Chorus II, and dang if I can't tell which speaker I'm listening too!

Just now adding one SW12 (I have ordered another Monster subwoofer RCA cable, so for now only my original sub). WOWIE WOWIE WOWIE!

Oh, it'll be a little bit before I can try that new (to me) Acurus amp; I haven't found a preamp to suite me yet.

Too cool. I think I just got sticky...

D!

[T2K]

Glad to hear you're having fun Dwayne. I think that after extended listening you'll hear the differences in the two mid horns. Originally I prefered the exponential in the Chorus, after a while I thought the tractrix in the Chorus II's a bit smoother. Then my tube amp crapped out. As I said before, I had never listened to either with my primary SS gear prior to the night before your visit.

Why not start a new thread in the HT forum requesting others opinions regarding preamps? I guarantee you many here can give valuable information and most likely any preamp available has been owned by someone here. This site is a valuable resource, use it to your advantage.

After working at least once a day since your visit and spending more time out of town rather than at home I took off sick today. If I get to feeling better I'll see if I can find some things you might enjoy reading. Like literature for the amp you just bought and anything else you might be interested in.

Keith

[soupamoto]

Thanks, Keith. Literature sounds great. Let me know if you need my address; I think I emailed it to you.

I'll check out some HT preamps in the forum. Man, I've found a bunch. I'm really looking at the Sunfire Theater Grand (the original or the II). Wow, you can score a 3 to 5 year old model for cheap compared to what they cost new!

D