soupamoto Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 OK, I'm ready to dump my Sony HT receiver for a set of separates. I have an Acurus 125x5 on the way. Now for the HT preamp. Is it my imagination, or can a few year old HT preamp that retailed for THOUSANDS of dollars, be had for a few hundred dollars, and still be viable these days?? Is a new HT preamp today really worth several thousand dollars more than these slightly oldie but goodies? I've looked at Adcom GTP-750 or 760, B & K Referance 20 and 30, Acurus ACT-3, Aragon Soundstage, and, the one that really makes me horny, the Sunfire Theater grand I, II and III. From what I've seen on eBay this past week, these models retailed for between maybe $1600 to $3600 just 3 to 6 years ago. But, from what I can tell, they all have at least the basic DD and DTS, and occasionally THX or some other obscure seldom actually found surround mode. And, can be had for between $300 and maybe $1000. I mean, near as I can cipher, a high end unit with 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS and a remote is about all one really really needs. What am I missing?! So, question is: bang for the buck (and belive me, bucks are running WAY thin after all the upgrades I've done this past few weeks), what is wrong with buying one of these units for today's Home Theater?? And, specifically, any MAJOR reason to spend a couple hundred dollars more for the Sunfire Theater Grand II or double that for the III over the original? Keep in mind, I can't (and won't) afford to actually spend three grand on a HT preamp... even if there are some subtle improvements to todays "new" technology. Down to Earth comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 *Some* of the older home theater pre-amps can be very good deals. However some are also basically the first HT based product for some companies and it showed in their capabilities or problems they had that never got fixed. You can certainly get some great deals out there but at the same time there is also some junk out there. It is worth researching any potential processor fairly carefully before making a choice. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupamoto Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 Thanks, Shawn. I think you are right. For instance, at the risk of making some owners mad... I've seen a TON of poor reviews of the Adcom stuff from this vintage. Not so much how they work or sound, but IF they work.... shame 'cause they are nice looking and seaming units. I have not seen the first negative toward any of the Sunfire Theater Grand units. They sure are prudy. And BIG! At this point, I'm thinking I just need to hit one with a dart and take it home! Still open to thoughts as to what to avoid and if there are any SIGNIFICANT differences that make any one stand out over the other. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 "Still open to thoughts as to what to avoid and if there are any SIGNIFICANT differences that make any one stand out over the other." Avoid the Krell HTS (I and II). The I lacked very common features and both the I and II had a lot of bugs in the software and problems locking onto digital streams. I haven't heard much about the Adcom's so I can't help you there. The B&Ks are pretty solid units. I don't know about the Sunfires too much. Depending upon your budget the Lexicon's and some of the Meridians are great units too. As far as differences between them that will be in the processing available and things like video switching and configurability with regards to input setup, bass management and so on. The user interface between them also varies widely. More advanced processing can give better results with 2 channel sources then Pro Logic (the older units won't have PLII) and some have processing to expand 5.1 sources out to 7.1. IMO depending upon your budget a v4 Lexicon DC-1, DC-2 or MC-1 is still a great buy and a steal at what some of them are going for. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vman71 Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Soup, As a previous owner of the Adcom GTP-750 and Adcom amp, I can tell you that they are not a good match with Klipsch. I had them hooked up with my KLF-20's and just wasn't thrilled. I bought the Sunfire TGII and CGII (both in the 17" architect's choice version) and have been really happy. They have never given me any problems. I chose the Sunfire gear for many reasons and "bang for the buck" was one of them. Another was the solid reputation of Bob Carver's products. I would also consider looking at some Arcam gear. While I've never owned any Arcam, the reviews have got me possibly looking at an integrated amp to hook up my Chorus II's to. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffDurbin Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 The recent ones will have things like flexible video switching (HDMI/DVI, etc.), 7.1, THX, multi-zone capability, and other neat things. I agree that you can get some great deals if you are willing to forego those types of items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 " 7.1, THX, multi-zone capability, and other neat things. I agree that you can get some great deals if you are willing to forego those types of items." Some of the older units will offer all that too. The Lexicon's would for example. " The recent ones will have things like flexible video switching (HDMI/DVI, etc.)," That is where the older units would be lacking since those didn't exist when some were made. *Spam Alert* However, it is possible to add those types of video switching to the some of the older units and have it seamlessly integrated such that it acts as if they had that video switching built in. I build a box that will allow a pre-pro to integrate with an external video switch or scaler. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 "Avoid the Krell HTS (I and II). The I lacked very common features and both the I and II had a lot of bugs in the software and problems locking onto digital streams." I've got a Krell HTS I and I LOVE it. Yes, it has one "bug": It does take about three seconds to lock onto audio after switching inputs - so if you are playing CD's and then switch to, say, TV, then there is a two to three second wait while it grabs the signal. There is no crossover frequency adjustment - it is fixed, but let me tell you - it is seamless, and CLEAN. The subwoofers sound AWESOME. This pre alone took my subs from "OK" to "INCREDIBLE". KRELL BASS RIPS. It allows for distance settings for all speakers, including sub. When I attached a sub eq, all I had to do was adjust the subs as "closer" than they really are (to compensate for the delay with the EQ), and they sonically fell "right in line". I bought it much as your scenario lays out: It was a few years old, and therefore cost about 1/6 the price. While it isn't featured as the newer units are, it does what it was built to do very well. It makes those who aren't real "tweakers" look like geniuses, by seamlessly integrating the sound of the associated equipment. There is no way I would buy a high end new pre/pro - just too expensive. If those new features and gadgets turn out to be beneficial and necessary, with mainstream formats, I'll buy in - when that pre sells for 10-40% of new selling price. But it's interesting, because after 4 years of owning the Krell, I have yet to even think about replacing it. It sounds too damn good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 "Yes, it has one "bug": It does take about three seconds to lock onto audio after switching inputs - so if you are playing CD's and then switch to, say, TV, then there is a two to three second wait while it grabs the signal." Depends upon the signal, others I know who reviewed it have clocked it as taking up to 45 seconds on some sources. I know several HTS I/II owners who were completely sick of the lock on problems (and having to wait for sound on layer changes) and dumped the gear because of it. But that will vary depending upon the source as they all handle digital format changes differently. "There is no crossover frequency adjustment - it is fixed, but let me tell you - it is seamless, and CLEAN." AFAIK from what Krell has stated there is no crossover at all on 2 channel sources on the HTS I. The HTS I only applied a crossover on DD/DTS sources. That is a glaring oversite in the product. "It allows for distance settings for all speakers, including sub. " That is a very common feature. "But it's interesting, because after 4 years of owning the Krell, I have yet to even think about replacing it. It sounds too damn good. " Good, keep enjoying it them. If you like it that is what is important. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed3 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 FOr the price range you are looking at, you may want to consider a BRAND NEW Outlaw Audio 990 preamp. For $900, you get an incredible preamp with updated features and a warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jzoz01 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I bought my NAD t-163 for close to that, and it has PLIIx as well as 3 component video ins. Very happy so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Hey, I fyou are looking for some feedback on the Sunfire stuff, go over to avsforum and check out the Sunfire thread...there are a few folks who are upset at Bob because fo apparent lack of software support for the early models - The most recent TGIV has been good for me, and that thread would indicate that you can upgrade with little problem from III to IV with a flash software update maybe? Check it out. I like the TGIV, it has a simple interface, it separates the channels well, has inputs and outputs galore, and is a solid peice of equipment. I lvoe the remote, and thisnk it was a damn fine purchase. If you keep your eyes open, you may be able to find a deal like mine, for whic I paid for a flawless "demo" less than half retail with the full warranty, but that is still some cash. There was a scathing blasting review of the Sunfire TGIII out there, it was an extreme over the top attack of the component, which you will find if you Google it...it soudned personal, not professional, I will warn you...I bought the stuff anyways, haven't looked back. My opinion, is that you cannot go wrong with the older Sunfire if you can get it cheap; can't talk about the others, but I am keeping my SF gear... I had looked at the Outlaw, and I just couldn't get excited about it - it has the apparent features, but some folks ( I think from this forum) said they weren't impressed, look for the thread...do the research before you buy, several good forums with reviews. Word of mouth is a good, but not fool proof indicator...ask MrMcGoo from this forum what he thinks of his Sunfire stuff, he is much more knowledgeable than I. FWIW, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jzoz01 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Sunfire is one of those things where you either love it or hate it. You'll find many happy Sunfire users on this forum. My expirience has been just the opposite. I worked for a HT retailer that carried Sunfire and each and every unit (TGIII, TGIV, & Ultimate Reciever) all had a faulty volume control. It drove me nuts. We had a couple units that we boomerangs. The volume knob on every single one would have problems where you would turn the volume down and it would stick then jump up 20 db or vice versa. Other than that I liked them a lot. Especially the TG IV, as it is almost the only HT processor that I'm aware of the does video upconversion to component. I would have bought one myself, but the volume knob thing really bugged me to the point that I wouldn't have enjoyed owning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupamoto Posted October 20, 2005 Author Share Posted October 20, 2005 Wow, lots of great input and helpfull opinions! OK, I found a Sunfire Theater Grand I on eBay that is a B stock, factory refurb, complete with new remote, and full 2 year warranty, for $599 plus very reasonable shipping. I made the plunge! In fact, Fedex shipping it arrived in only 2 days and I just unpacked it. It is beautiful!! (more on there if anybody is itchin' for one now!). Six hundred bucks! If it works that seller will get a glorious positive feedback! Unfortunately the Acurus 125x5 amp I also scored on eBay has not arrived yet. I think it is on the slow Parcel Post Boat to China, and back. Hmmph. I'm going to search some posts for an explination of how to use the "7.1" channels on this TG... since Dolby Digital and DTS do not support 7.1 I haven't a clue what to use those extra two channels for... if I don't find what I'm lookin' for I'll put up a new post. Thanks for all the help! I can't wait to try this new set up out with my treo of Forte', Chorus, and Chorus II (and one Academy, and the KT LCRs and in wall 250) and see what the ulitmate setup for my room turns out to be! More fun than a box full of puppies!! D aka; soupamoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockbobmel Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 I have a Rotel RSP-985 and got it for cheap. It works music beautifully. 5.1, DTS, and a few other valuable features. I will prolly end up getting a RSP 1068 because of the vid component (no delay) in-out and software upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 I feel that older high end processors are a good way to go. They may not have a few of the bells & whistles that the current units have, but good sound is good sound, and thats what the high end products were made to deliver. Sacrifice a couple of modern features, and you get a great sounding unit at a bargain price. Enjoy your new gear. I'm going to search some posts for an explination of how to use the "7.1" channels on this TG... since Dolby Digital and DTS do not support 7.1 I haven't a clue what to use those extra two channels for... if I don't find what I'm lookin' for I'll put up a new post. There is no 7.1 format currently. The extra 2 channels are matrixed by the processor, how well depends on the quality of the unit. Basically you have 1 pair of surrounds at the sides and another pair behind you. Done well it can sound far better & more enveloping than 5.1 or 6.1. If the pre matrixes the rears in stereo, all the better. I've tried stepping back to 5.1 for comparison, and felt that the surround effect was definately lacking compared to 7.1. Although, there are some who don't like the idea of the processor matrixing in extra channels. As always, YMMV. If you have an extra pair of speakers around, I'd suggest trying it out and see which you prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupamoto Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 Excellent. Thanks! Your thoughts are right where I'm at. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.