Power hungry, not rich

[hillbilly]

Wanted some input on an idea I had. I have a 7.1 Yamaha with 120wpc. Everything is fine with me for movies. However, I have an insatiable desire for loud clean music. My speakers are rated 250 and 1000 peak. I was thinking about getting a seperate 2 channel amp with 200-300 watts for stereo listening.

With an outboard 2 channel amp wouldn't I need to disable it for movies? Seems like the mains with all that extra power would somehow be unbalanced. Then again I suppose I could just turn down the volume. LOL The idea is that I don't want to buy a friggin' seven channel amp so I can really blast the music. I never listen to music in anything but 2 channel unless I'm just using it for background noise. (parties..)

Anybody ever do something like that before?

[michael hurd]

If you have 120 watts, then 240 watts would net a 3db difference in output, the same difference as going from 1-2 watts. It would afford a little more headroom, and possibly have a slightly cleaner sound. If you have the money, then by all means go for it, if you are on a budget, I would wait.

Having an outboard amplifier on the main speakers is quite fine, I do that myself. I use it for both movies and music, without having a trigger, I have to manually turn it on all the time. The amplifier is driven via the pre-amp outputs, and I balance the relative channel levels with a sound pressure level meter and pink noise. As long as the channel levels are set correctly, there is no appreciable difference in sound from channel to channel.

[DrWho]

so you running Chorus II's? (they're the only klipsch I know with the 1000W rating).

Does your reciever have analog preouts? If so, you just connect the amp

to them and then recalibrate the channel levels so that everything

balances out for movies. It's a rather common practice and works very

well. Having no speakers connected to your reciever will also improve

the sound quality / power handling on the other channels as well.

So what kind of amp do you have in mind? And what's the budget?

[michael hurd]

RF-7 have the rating of 250 watts continuous, and 1000 watts peak, unless it was one of the few that were mislabelled at the factory.

[hillbilly]

I have Epic CF-3's and according to the website they are 250 continious and 1000 peak. I have Yamaha RX-V1500 and it has pre-outs for all channels.

I'm kinda new to home audio so I'm sure there are many fine brands of amplifiers I'm sure I have never heard of. I did alot of car audio in the past (younger days) and for car amps to approach the watts per dollar level that home equipment commands you'd have to be purchasing the really high end stuff. I had a Precision Power car amp that was a grand for 800w mono @ 2ohms but this home stuff is really up there in price. What I'm getting at is I'm not sure what's the best quality per buck in home audio.

I'm glad to hear that my idea is not new! If I was blazing a trail I'd be worried.... How do you re-calibrate the volumes? Wouldn't I just set the gain on the outboard amp to match the receiver?

I know you have to double amp power to get 3db, but I've definitely noticed clarity improvements with less than doubling the power. I went from my old Yamaha @ 80w to my new one with 120w and it was distinctly cleaner and a bit louder. In my car days I upgraded from 50wpc in my front speakers to 100w and I was less impressed by the volume than by the clarity so I pretty much expect the same at home.

[michael hurd]

If you really want the best bang for the buck in home audio, look no further than the world of offerings in the pro audio marketplace.

[JJkizak]

You might want to do what I do. Run the K-horns with a separate amp driven by another 7.1 amp which feeds the center channel , sub and side and rear speakers. The K-horn amp has an Equalizer and Expander wheras the other channels do not. The K-horn amp volume is set at the loud level that is balanced with the 7.1 amp and the 7.1 amp controls the volume of the K-horn amp so I only need to set one volume control after I get things balanced. The 7/1 amp is set to Dolby PC II which really sets off the center channel and sub. It's an awsome experience even if it's solid state.

JJK

[DrWho]

You would set the volume control on the amplifier for the lowest noise

floor (least amount of amp hiss) and then you would adjust the

independent channel volumes on the reciever. (probably boosting the

center and surrounds to match). If you have no noise floor to worry

about, then I see no reason not to set the volume on the mains to match

everything else. It really doesn't matter where you do the attenuation

as long as its balanced in the end without any amp hiss or buzz.

Btw, I also recommend going with a "pro" amp as well. If you can swing

the funds I highly recommend the Crown K2 - which has no fan and insane

power handling capability. The only reason "home" amplifiers cost more

all comes down to marketing and pretty packaging...not so much the

sound quality as many would want you to believe. However, pro amps

usually have loud fans so be wary on what you get. (basically just find

one without a fan).

http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/k.htm

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/search/detail/base_id/40442/src=00633

($1500 + free shipping)

[cjgeraci]

Well, pretty much what everyone else has said - except for the fan issue.

I can weigh in on the issue of fans and pro amps since I have now run my two QSC PLXs in open racks for a number of months now. Bottom line, the stock QSC fans are just not that loud to be noticeable - at all.

There is a faint hum that comes from the units that is only barely audible when no music or movies are playing. You would have to be sitting right next to your audio rack to hear the fans when anything is on. And most people locate their racks away from their seats. Placement also helps and by placing the QSCs on the bottom shelves of my racks, I do not notice them. If the stock fans are of concern, there are some in here (i.e. TigerwoodKhorns) that have swapped out the stock fan for a quieter model.

Crown makes excellent pro amps, and they are worth considering. But, I love the lack of grain and glare from my QSC PLXs (and the price is right). They should also be given some thought.

Carl.

[hillbilly]

I'm sorry, are you guys talking about "pro" as in professional, or "pro" as a brand name of amplifiers? I'm gonna take at a look at that Crown K2.

My Yamaha actually has a cooling fan in it which I never heard except once. I was cranking it for a good bit and for some reason I abruptly turned it down and walked near it. That was the only time I ever heard the fan. I would hope that any quality home amp would be as quiet. If the fan causes noisethrough the speakers it sounds either poorly constructed or malfuctioning.

[hillbilly]

Okay, I looked at the Crown K2 and answered my own question. You mean pro rack mount stuff. My dad's a musician so I've seen that musician's friend catalog many times. That amp is absolutely out of hand. I like it.

[DrWho]

Well, pretty much what everyone else has said - except for the fan issue.

I

can weigh in on the issue of fans and pro amps since I have now run my

two QSC PLXs in open racks for a number of months now. Bottom line,

the stock QSC fans are just not that loud to be noticeable - at all.

There

is a faint hum that comes from the units that is only barely audible

when no music or movies are playing. You would have to be sitting

right next to your audio rack to hear the fans when anything is on.

And most people locate their racks away from their seats. Placement

also helps and by placing the QSCs on the bottom shelves of my racks, I

do not notice them. If the stock fans are of concern, there are some

in here (i.e. TigerwoodKhorns) that have swapped out the stock fan for

a quieter model.

Crown makes excellent pro amps, and they are

worth considering. But, I love the lack of grain and glare from my QSC

PLXs (and the price is right). They should also be given some thought.

But the fan noise is a huge deal because the overall noise floor of the

system limits the "sound quality" on so many different levels. In other

words, if your noise floor is loud enough that you can't notice fan

noise, then you have some other concerns to worry about that will yield

far better improvements to the overall sound.

That's not to say that fan noise can't be dealt with and minimized to

the point where it becomes a non-issue (low noise fans, tucking the amp

in cabinets, putting the amp in different rooms, etc etc...), but

it's something that doesn't have to be done with a better amp choice.

The hum that you have in your QSC is probably due to a high input

sensitivity, which makes any residual noise on the line relatively

louder (and thus audible). Is the hum still there when you disconnect

the input cable? If not, then I bet moving to a balanced interconnect

would eliminate the problem. I only bring this up because many people

have the notion that pro amps have nasty buzzes and hiss in them (which

some of the poorer models do), but it's not something inherant in every

design (and certainly not something present in quality amps).

Btw, QSC makes some pretty crappy amps too [] Also, the K2 is a very

popular studio monitor (flagship if you will), so it has all the

benefits one might want in the home: very low impedance capability,

high power handling, very very clean sound (even at low power levels),

etc etc...

On a tighet budget the PLX's seem to be rather popular lately and you

can get the cheaper fan for like $20 shipped. I've not personally heard

them, but they get rave reviews all over the place.

[cjgeraci]

Ok, perhaps "hum" was a poor choice of a term. I did not intend to refer to the typical "hum," meaning an unwanted sound coming from my sensitive Belles. Actually, the QSC PLXs are very quiet in that respect, and have a low noise floor, which was a pleasant surprise. There are no nasty buzzes or hiss. I was actually trying to describe the sound of the fan - in that this particular fan is not the turbo, aircraft style of loud, blaring fan that I have had with some amps. Or as some have described with some pro amps.

"In other words, if your noise floor is loud enough that you can't notice fan noise, then you have some other concerns to worry about that will yield far better improvements to the overall sound."

Quite the contrary, I have a very low noise floor with respect to my system. Not SET low, but pretty low notwithstanding. However, I have located the QSC amps in such a position where the fans are not audible, and the fans are just really not that loud - to begin with. However, I do appreciate your thoughfulness about the state of my system. No such concerns here.

"Btw, QSC makes some pretty crappy amps too [] Also, the K2 is a very popular studio monitor (flagship if you will), so it has all the benefits one might want in the home: very low impedance capability, high power handling, very very clean sound (even at low power levels), etc etc...

On a tighet budget the PLX's seem to be rather popular lately and you can get the cheaper fan for like $20 shipped. I've not personally heard them, but they get rave reviews all over the place."

I agree with your assessment of some other QSC amps. One of the things that may make the PLXs sound good is their switching method, as opposed to other QSC gear. And I am sure that the K2 is a very fine piece and a very popular studio monitor. I just know that I have had many amps, including pretty nice ones, in and out of this system driving a variety of different Heritage and Reference speakers. And my ears tell me that these little QSC PLXs have a unique sound that mate well with horn-loaded speakers. As a result, these amps sound great, regardless of one's budget - and regardless of other fanless pro amp options out there. That was the pleasant surprise. Since QSC was on the lower end of the pro sound food chain and many musicians just use these amps for their bass rig, I did not believe what some initially said in here about the PLX - regarding how well it mated with Klipsch speakers. Until I heard one.

Although, the K2 may be a perfect option for all home applications if it sounds as good as the PLX. I cannot comment since I have yet to hear a K2 mated with Klipsch speakers.

It is always nice to have options.

But, of course.............I could be wrong.........

Carl.

[DrWho]

Get any amp with a fan in a room with a 20dB noise floor and then you'll know what I'm talking about []

Sfogg's and Artto's dedicated rooms come to mind, as do many studios...

Btw, I'm not trying to degrade anyone's system....we can talk about the

ideal all day long and get nowhere because most of us are nowhere close

to it. Heck, I've got a crown XLS 402 to power my subwoofers and that

thing is a mega jet engine. Even tucked away inside a cabinet I can

hear it inbetween tracks. You don't notice it during rests in the

music, but alas I know it would sound better without the noise. But

even with my amp off I can still hear the refrigerator in the kitchen

roaring away....and when the fridge isn't going I can hear the fan from

my pc. I'm pushing a good 50dB noise floor and it drives me nuts.

[Duke Spinner]

the PLX's are fine amps ....[:-*]

[colterphoto1]

Get any amp with a fan in a room with a 20dB noise floor and then you'll know what I'm talking about []

Sfogg's and Artto's dedicated rooms come to mind, as do many studios...

Btw, I'm not trying to degrade anyone's system....we can talk about the ideal all day long and get nowhere because most of us are nowhere close to it. Heck, I've got a crown XLS 402 to power my subwoofers and that thing is a mega jet engine. Even tucked away inside a cabinet I can hear it inbetween tracks. You don't notice it during rests in the music, but alas I know it would sound better without the noise. But even with my amp off I can still hear the refrigerator in the kitchen roaring away....and when the fridge isn't going I can hear the fan from my pc. I'm pushing a good 50dB noise floor and it drives me nuts.

I think I became hypersensite to background noise when I lived out on the farm. I can hear the 'whump' of the gas igniting in my boiler in the basement from my bedroom at opposite end of home. Let alone radiator pings, I can hear the water flowing through the pipes in my home. I'm glad I don't have forced air heat. Also fridge fan make me crazy. And booming stereos and airplanes really get my wrath. There is a dark side to having good hearing.

I've been to friends homes where I just had to leave, the mechanicals were creating so much bedlam.

Michael

[JJkizak]

Cotterphoto1:

You have the new disease called "Farmazational Noise Syndrome" and you should be taking a $10,000.00 per year drug to combat it.

JJK

[hillbilly]

Has anybody listened to Behringer amps before? They're damn cheap, but wonder if the sound quality is there. Half the price of QSC at nearly the same output. $600 QSC 500w vs. $300 Behringer 450w. Most of the reviews were good.

[michael hurd]

Have not personally listened to the Behringer EP amps, however there were a few threads over at the prosound web site, where they tested them, and showed detailed pictures.

They are visually very similar in construction and detail to the QSC RMX series amplifiers. The Behringer uses a slightly different PC board layout, and a slightly smaller torroidal transformer.

The Behringer looks like it could easily have been reverse engineered from the QSC, the QSC is built overseas. In professional useage, the QSC would have an edge in thermal performance, driving low-impedance loads ie: several subwoofers in parallel.

For home use, either would do the job, the QSC is more money, but also has a better service network and history established.

For a bit more money, the QSC PLX series amplifiers are made in america, and built more robustly. Bottom line is you basically get what you pay for.

If I were buying an inexpensive amplifier for a DIY subwoofer project, and needed a bit of power,i'd probably go for the QSC RMX amps, provided the load is 4-8 ohms. If I had a DJ/Rental outfit, and needed power amps that can take a lickin' I would probably spring for the PLX series.

[colterphoto1]

"For a bit more money, the QSC PLX series amplifiers are made in america, and built more robustly. Bottom line is you basically get what you pay for. "

Amen brother Hurd.

Listen to this guy, he's smart! [8-|]

Michael