"Headroom" - what does it sound like to you?

[mobile homeless]

[ben.]

Wow. This thread has more missed targests than a failed Iraqi jailbreak. We should commend the old gaurd for not swearing, I think.

[Jeff Matthews]

My prediction is that there will come a time soon in the course of your persistense in the development of your inadequacy when you will need to push this overcompensation to the point of upgrading your gear to include a stereo pair of air raid sirens and jack hammers to get the dB levels of slam, punch, kick, pants flap, (insert aggressive/erotic descriptors here), needed to convince yourself and your peer group that you are a powerfull guy with a powerfull "sound system" to match.

Sadly, Jeff, it seems to be quite clear to some of us at this point that you are vainly searching for how to maintain sonic levels lost to your ears by just this same such said searching (cranking it up, and possibly from all the drumming), as you are certainly losing you hearing - as may be the case for some others here that are trying to see how dangerously insanely crazily absurdly rediculously perposterously loud their gear will play instead of employing their gear for normal enjoyment of music at human levels - those that don't destroy room furnishings, cook raw meat, or harm one's hearing. You are chasing an infantile and destructive course that has nothing to do with the reproduction of music and everthing to do with messing youself up.

Stop the madness and TURN IT DOWN... it has become painfull to read your increasingly distressing and unfortunate posts. This thread reads like an intervention to save you from yourself.

Paul, old chap. Nice you're able to amuse yourself. However, I've happily had the same amp for 20 years. So, it's not a "let's get even louder" thing at all.

As far as the "distress" comment, re-read everything. No distress on my end. I am very happy. My amp was an excellent choice for me.

"The development of my inadequacy." That's cute, Paul. What drove you to that statement, anyway? You know full-well I could play your little game, but it's infantile to do so.

And.... yep! If you got it, flaunt it. I got it, baby!

[MarkBK]

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! Mobile, Thank you....this sums it up perfectly.

[Jeff Matthews]

Now, back to same sane business. You folks who say 20 watts gets you to ear-bleeding dB's. I've seen your math, and that's all fine on paper - assuming I want to re-work the math to make sure it is correct. But I don't, and I'll take your word for it.

Now, tell me, if your running 200-watts, where does the excess go? It isn't heat in my case because it definitely goes louder. I would think if I extended your math, the 200 watts goes beyond the rated max SPL of Klipschorns. Maybe not.

[ben.]

I wonder if our education system would be more effective if it taught people how to think & learn rather than to memorize the Gettysburg Address and primary exports of Bolivia.

[Jeff Matthews]

I will still maintain high power is a huge difference. A guy by the handle of tilmbill wrote the following in the "I Bought Klipschorns" thread. He's right on the money on the sound quality difference.

Saw something on Audiogon that I thought would be of interest to this post. A Krell KSA 300 (Thats class A I believe) which means 300wpc 8ohm, 600wpc 4ohm. Doubles down to 1 ohm, for sale $3000, and $6000 new. Post reads " Used on the most efficient speakers...in the world (could be speakers made?)... Klipsch.

Now why would some one with money like that do something like buy a 300wpc amp to play through his "Most efficient speakers" Klipsch. Especially when we all know he could have the same sound with a set amp or a HK 65wpc.

In all honesty, if you have never heard a Klipsch speaker, any Klipsch speaker, on a quality SS amp or higher powered tube amp, you really do not know what the difference can be. I currently own and have hooked up: RF5, Forte II, Cornwall, Khorn, SB 2.1s, KG 3.5, Heresys, 6.5" out door speakers, on amps like Mc240 (40wpc RCA blackplate 6L6GC's), SX 1250 (160wpc), M80 (260wpc), M65(165wpc), BK ST202 (200wpc), Mark IV (40wpc Mullard XF2 EL 34's), VRDs (60wpc gold lion KT88's), Scott 299D (22wpc?). Want to come by and hear the difference for your self as more watts are added, whether it be SS or Tube.

Do you really think there is no difference? Let me tell you in the simplest terms what I hear, " More control over the music". The amp takes control and you know what real music can sound like, tighter, deeper bass...faster. It makes the prior amp sound weak, or dull on bass. More pop and snap to instruments, clearer pick on the guitar strings. Sweet highs that go on forever but do not roll off. Oh yeah, you will know when the notes are rolled off. Don't believe, try it. There is no substitute. As mentioned above, most of the list has been moved around so that all speakers have played through all amps and preamps.

As a last testament, and I have no idea his current gear, Ping Smilin. I bet you he has high wattage, very very very expensive gear now. He joined much like you Meagin, but with seemingly endless funds. He bought and upgraded weekly. It would be interesting to know where he has landed.

Smilin...feel free to chime in or someone call him to voice his opinion. He has traveled long, far and fast on a journey to musical bliss..

I especially like his observation that if you haven't listened to the Klipsch through a quality, high-powered amp, you don't know what the difference can be. This guy's exactly right.

[MarkBK]

mobile homeless wrote:

[ben.]

If I bring a Micro 1200 home & tell you what I think, will you drop it?

[Jeff Matthews]

I doubt it, but I would hope that you'd give a nice serious crank and tell us what you honestly think. Maybe you'll like it and want something like it - not necessarily Crown, but similar clean, high power. I'd also hope that a positive review by you might be motivation for some others to check out what IMO they are missing.

Seriously, I hope you can get your hands on one and give it a try with a follow-up review.

[ben.]

Fine. I'll bring one home and see what it does for me. There's three or four sitting on the loaner shelf at work at any given moment, depending on where we are with installs and backorders.

If it flips my wig, I'm sure I can turn my Mc-30s and keep the 1200 for llittle impact financially....

Keep in mind, I'm going to listen at a range of SPL that I enjoy. This includes levels below 90dB (that's where you have to raise your voice to be heard, just for a rough reference)as well as some forays into foolish territory just to see what you're so enthused about.

I'm not sure why, as you've given zero consideration to the considerable reasoned dissent offered, but what the hell...

[Jeff Matthews]

Cool!

Also, perusing Audiogon, I was curious to see what the most expensive tube amp might be. A few days ago, I found this $11,000 USED price for an amp.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1139258551

Amazingly, it sold! Who has that kind of dough for just an amp?

I Googled the specs and found, among its 280-watts at 16 ohms (what would it be at 8 ohms?), these:

http://www.audioresearch.com/reference_300new.htm

Also, the write-up on the link said this:

"Finally, the sense of power conveyed by these amplifiers is much more apparent on big dynamic swings -- they have effortless muscle when called for, yet they are capable of amazing delicacy in the next moment."

So, I think that backs up what I was saying about power, as do the uniform comments of those who support feeding Klipsch high power.

BTW, the seller of the used amp said he's switching from this used tube with a used price of $11,000 to solid state. Wonder if he's moving up the power line. I'd think he'd have to in order to be motivated to dump an amp like that.

[meagain]

But does the seller indicate what kind/type of speakers he has? Do you not take into account here that the klipsch run differently - efficiently?

[ben.]

If he's got efficient speaks, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he's moving to a lower powered option. Why don't you ask the seller, rather than assume and offer conjecture?

Oh, and thanks so much for the links to marketing copy. That really tends to offer true insights regarding the quality of said gear.

[Jeff Matthews]

If he's got efficient speaks, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he's moving to a lower powered option. Why don't you ask the seller, rather than assume and offer conjecture?

Because his Audiogon listing said he was going to go SS. Everyone on here knows its either low-wattage tubes or high-wattage SS. []

As to the marketing hype, the point was not whether that amp (with a $30,000 price tag NIB) does what it says in the ad. It was that the maker of the amp (who probably has at least a brain and some knowledge of sound quality being as they make $30,000 amps) described what you get with power. I think it would be hard to "puff" a statement that power delivers greater dynamics if science showed otherwise.

[ben.]

Obviously.

[Jeff Matthews]

I've noticed along the way that everyone who has high-powered SS amps driving their Klipsch has been consistent in describing the improved dynamics and what a huge difference it makes.

There has only been 1 (maybe 2) who berated a high-powered amp that they either used to have or heard before. The rest have simply said "too loud, too loud."

For this inquiry, I'd like to not have responses from those who used to have, or heard before, but do not currently have high-output amps. In other words, I'm wanting to know if anyone on this forum currently has a high-powered amp that they would say is rivaled by a 40 or 60-watter in terms of sound quality when played at a volume higher than moderate - but not necessarily cranked big-time.

The reason for excluding those who used to have them or heard them before is because I remember a guy whose initials were TBrennan, who just berated the snot out of Heresies - ranked them a 2 out of 10. I found a thread by him in another forum where merely a year or so before, he was bragging to someone how the Heresies were the best speaker of their class beyond comparison.

It's easy to berate something you don't own.

Me, I've got a decent little 30-watt Marantz, and it's not in the ballpark with my Crown in terms of sound quality - not even at moderate volumes (which, to me, are volumes that allow you to still talk to someone without yelling). Seeing as I have both, I think I can speak fairly as to each of them.

So, if you got a high powered amp (say 200+ watts), tell us whether you think it is rivaled by 40 or 60-watt amps, whether tubes or not. It'd also be cool to know what amp you have and it's power rating.

[MrMcGoo]

Shyawn,

As usual you are right on as to the usefullness of the 144 db range and the optimism of the120 db number. THX agrees from a practical point of view. THX certified equalizers cover (can pass) about 125 decibel range with +/- 6 decibels of EQ.

But 120 decibels is 15 decibels above the 105 and is a number that I can easily accept. I made a bit of progress.

Back to headroom. Some folks swear by THX standards others swear at them. Personally, I would never be without a THX processor and I wish I had both the space and the dollars for the Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs. Those very plain little black boxes together can put out 130 decibels at 30 Hz and 122 decibels at 20 Hz. (At this point Dr.Who reminds us of the practical limitations of the subs.) The points in all of this are the the rest of the "system" should be able to keep up relative to the subs performance. This goes double for systems that run the sub signal to the mains in addition to the subs.

Klipsch uses a 500 wpc x2 amp for just the LFE range with the Ultra2 subs. And then folks complain about similar power to RF-7s. The RSW-15 that I use with my RF-7s has a 650 watt amp. No one on the 2 channel forum ever complains about the power of the RSW-15.

Another way to look at this would be that if you want the ability to hit 30 decibel dynamic peaks over 85 decibels (commercial theater levels), how many decibels of additional headroom should a fellow have for his mains? Any good engineer will build in a margin of safety. How big should the margin of safety be when playing at commercial reference levels?

Bill

[DrWho]

This is one of the most sterile, pumped up, artificial, mediocre recordings I have heard in awhile.

I now have a much better idea of where you're coming from.

No, I don't think you have the slightest clue as to where I'm coming from.

On a side note, you can not demerit any recording style for music you don't enjoy. I would be interested to hear what you would consider a better quality recording of the exact same music though...

[DrWho]

Dr. Who - where are going to test your hearing that actually test to 20k and above? Very few places offer that service that I'm aware of and it is one that I'm interested in finding!

Look up Dr. Rubach - one of the best ENT's in the nation. He practices at the Dreyer Medical clinic over near the Fox Valley Mall (or wait, isn't it westfield shopping center now?)