sfogg Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 " - but I would imagine the listening position should be more central and less likely to be a node. " Room nodes are typically strongest in the center of a room. Equal distance to two or more (sometimes four or even six) walls. Play pink noise with your sub on sometime and your mains off and listen to how much the bass changes as you walk around your room. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 "What do you mean set to "small?" Please explain wiring or whatever you are referring to. " Is the Sony a HT receiver? If so RTFM. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Wow,...I go the gym for two hours and this thread inflates to 22 replies already, before I can reply once. First off, Jeff thank you for all the complementing words on my career, my Big Left Turn cd, my castle and of course, my Klipsch 3-channel and theater setups. SFOGG: The weight on the SPL was "C" , so yes the dB's were exaggerrated. NOSValve: The KT88 on the VRD was working fine on the demo day with Jeff. I think it is just the tube contact situation like you explained in your email today.TO Everyone: ...we didn't listen to 110+ dB's for more then a few seconds at at time. My ears cannot handle it, and Jeff will let you know that I explained in advance that I didn't mind him "cranking" my system, just as long as I could step out of the room while he pushed the system.AS far as the difference in the VRD's versus his Crown...the power is obviously there with his Crown, but I noticed that his Solid State amp had a harsher highend then the VRD s; it was quit obvious to me. NO matter what volume we listened at. There is something about the VRD's that is so special to me.But the main difference in the whole days demo was the insert of my newly acquired NosValves upgraded Scott LC-21 Tube Pre-Amp. It was quite obvious. His system lit-up when we inserted the TUBE PRE-AMP !!!! It was clear as day versus night. It only took a second to realize what the main culperate was in his system.My suggestion is : .......he needs a Tube PreAmp. I recommend a Scott 130 or an LC-21 , if he can find this rare gem ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 "What do you mean set to "small?" Please explain wiring or whatever you are referring to. " Is the Sony a HT receiver? If so RTFM. Shawn Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 NOSValve: The KT88 on the VRD was working fine on the demo day with Jeff. I think it is just the tube contact situation like you explained in your email today. .... AS far as the difference in the VRD's versus his Crown...the power is obviously there with his Crown, but I noticed that his Solid State amp had a harsher highend then the VRD s; it was quit obvious to me. NO matter what volume we listened at. There is something about the VRD's that is so special to me. On the KT-88, I hope it isn't the result of something we did re: cranking it up. If so, let me know. On the power issue, I agree that the difference in power is obvious, but not as far as sound goes. The difference only related to how far you turn the dial before it's too loud. Either way, they both have enough power to do what you want with the Khorns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 TO Everyone: ...we didn't listen to 110+ dB's for more then a few seconds at at time. My ears cannot handle it, and Jeff will let you know that I explained in advance that I didn't mind him "cranking" my system, just as long as I could step out of the room while he pushed the system. That's true. Craig kind of took off to the kitchen while I test drove it in 6th gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 Did you do any listening at more moderate volumes? I would guess differences would be more obvious (in favour of the tubes) where impending deafenss is not an issue[] "Anybody agree Craig and I were listening to 6-12 watts? " Not according to my maths - not at that distance. For arguments sake 14.5 FT is about 4 meters. If you drop 6 dB for every doubling of distance I reckon you were really pushing Craigs' amp to, if not beyond its limit. At 116 dB it must have been clipping - unless Nosvalves installed a bit more headroom that we are aware of. Of course tubes do clip more benignly than SS amps. Also - the compression loading at the throat of the Horn means you were at the absolute limits of the Khorn too... For a 104 dB/w/m senstive speaker 64 watts gives 122 dB @ 1 meter. Lose 12 for the distance.* Add 6 for the second speaker.* Gives you 116 dB @ 64 watts for your peak. A constant figure of 112 dB (@ 4 meters), on the other hand, is a mere 31 watts or thereabouts. * - neither cast in stone - but it should be around these figures. All in all - with these volume levels - stay with what you have - there is little point in discussing quality here - frankly I am amazed you heard any difference at all. Certainly explains why you cant hear old/bad Xover's from new ones. This was my point in the other thread where I stated tubes would be a waste for old Jeff. Craig I admit that, with the exception of the pre-amp. The only thing that would keep me from a tube pre-amp is the fact that I already have a pretty decent SS pre-amp. If I was looking for a pre-amp from scratch, I'd go tube pre all the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 "The difference only related to how far you turn the dial before it's too loud." Actually that isnt anything to do with the power of the amp either - that is input senstivity by the sounds of things. When Tony came round here with his 500 wpc amp Vs my 70 the volumes were identical for the first half dozen clicks - and probably thereafter a while's - but we weren't testing volume. Craig (Nosvalves), Too funny!! Shawn, Yet again you show me my error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 khorns out of the corner? You guys must not like 300Hz material whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 khorns out of the corner? You guys must not like 300Hz material whatsoever. We don't. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 "The difference only related to how far you turn the dial before it's too loud." Actually that isnt anything to do with the power of the amp either - that is input senstivity by the sounds of things. When Tony came round here with his 500 wpc amp Vs my 70 the volumes were identical for the first half dozen clicks - and probably thereafter a while's - but we weren't testing volume. Okay, Max, please clarify because here's what we have: (1) Crown, Yammy pre and HK CD, playing "Babylon Sister" by Steely Dan - turn it up 1/2 way. (2) VRD's, Yammy and HK CD, playing same tune - turn it up 2/3 for the same loudness. This was roughly the difference. Either way, you get all the loudness and dynamics you want, but I thought the difference of having to turn the dial more was due to power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Jeff, All amps have a spec relating to the amount of input in Volts to produce rated power. Some amps are as low as 1V others as high as 20V. Naturally, two 40 Watt amps one with a 1 volt the other with a 2.5 volt input sensitivity will require different settings of the pre-amp's volume control to provide the same loudness. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 "but I thought the difference of having to turn the dial more was due to power. " One more time..... the volume control has no relation to how much power two different amps are putting out. If they were playing at the same volume they were putting out the same amount of power. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 Rick, if I read correctly, voltage is directly related to power, and therefore, that's why you'd have to turn the dial or more or less, depending on voltage (which seems to directly relate to power), to achieve the same loudness. Shawn, how about one more time... Trust me, you will educate me with a little patienc, and it will work. I am not trying to argue against your point - just trying to work it out in my head so I stop thinking the way I have. "If they were playing at the same volume, they were putting out the same power." This would mean that it takes 1/2 the dial to get x watts out of my Crown and about 2/3's to get the same x watts out of the tubes, correct? My thought on it was the dial is there to start out at the bottom - letting nothing out, and to wind up at the top - running the amp wide open (maybe not a perfect reasoning, but you get the idea). So, having to turn the dial more to get the same volume, is an insight into how much amp power remains - not what has been used - but what remains. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Jeff, You need to talk to Craig (NosValves) about his VRD design. He designed those amps and what they are saying is true. The dial knob doesn't determine what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 3 word's .... Power Amp Sensitivity 3 more........ Preamp Voltage Out ...........[8-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Right? no, because you are assuming the preamp has the ability to saturate the input on the amplifier. You are also completely leaving out the impedance factor (which determines how much current flows for a specific voltage...and it is both the current and voltage that defines the power output of the device). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 Guys, I know you are right because you are all in agreement. I wish I could understand, but I think it would have to start with "See Spot Run." So, I won't belabor the point out of courtesy. It would be nice to understand, though. Anyone who cares to share their knowledge of the formula that fits this, I'm all ears, but I'm not going to bother anyone who's had enough of my questions. Craig LeMay, you have e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 "So, having to turn the dial more to get the same volume, is an insight into how much amp power remains - not what has been used - but what remains. Right?" Wrong. There is no correlation between the volume control and the wattage out of the amplifier. One amp could need 1v of input for 300w of output. One amp could need 2v of input for 1w of output. A third amp could need 8v of input for 2000w of output. Plug the same pre-amp into each of them and you will find their volume controls are at very different positions for the same volume. Same volume means same amount of power being put out. And how far the volume control is turned has no bearing on how much power is left between the amps. All *any* amplifier does is multiple a voltage it is fed. Different amps have different multipliers to that voltage. (Gains/input sensitivity) The gain/input sensitivity is not directly related to the max power available from the amp. The max power is simply a measure of how high the multiplication of the amp can go. The volume control on a pre-amp simply adjusts the level (voltage) of the signal fed to the amp. For example.... Amp A has a multiplication factor of 15v per volt. IOW you feed it 1v it spits out 15. Its max power (in volts) is 30v. You feed it 2v it spits out 30v and is at max power. Amp B has a multiplication factor of 5v/v. You feed it 1v it spits out 5. But its max power is 100v. So before it 'maxes' out of power you need to feed it 20v on the input. Compared to amp A you need to turn up the volume on amp B much higher for the same volume (power) out of the amp. Yet amp B has far more max power then amp A. Get it? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiohead Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Wish I had been paying attention a bit more and known about this mini-meet. I would have brought my HF-81 and MC-30's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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