Fun at Born2RockU's - The Headroom/Liquefying Experiment!

[Jeff Matthews]

Okay folks, it was a fun Friday morning at Craig LeMay's (Born2RockU's). Can't say it all in a few words, so bear with me for a full-spectrum review. Dont take it too hard; I just tell it like it is.

First, Craig impressed me - truly a pro's-pro when it comes to what he has accomplished as a musician. He's got a nice house, a nice pool, fantastic drumset, killer stereo - in short, the guy's living large at what we'd all love to do. Very impressive. And he gave me a CD to take home - his CD.

As a pro, since his job is drumming, he likes a break when he has downtime, so we kept it at stereo hi-fi. But, Craig, having listened to your CD on the road back to the office and home, I've gotta say - you need to treat me "live" sometime.

This drummer from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Houston really rocks. When you get that good, there's no room for "who's better than who." Craig's that good.

Now to hi-fi. Guess what? Craig also has an SPL meter he coincidentally had laying around. For those who just had to know how deaf I am, we listened to a steady 110-112 dB with about 116 dB peaks measured at 14.5 feet from the speakers. So, you do the math. That's the rockin' I'm talking about.

On to the equipment.....

I brought my Crown 1200, my Yamaha pre-amp and my HK CD. Craig, of course, had his tube VRD's by NosValves (another Craig [], who I will hereinafter refer to as "NosValves" for clarity's sake), a Scott tube pre-amp, and a Jolida tube CD.

We started w/my set-up as it sits on my shelf. Used it as a frame of reference. Then, we listened through the VRD's w/my Yammy pre, and my HK CD. Then, we listened to Craig's Scott pre (a NosValves re-build BTW) through my Crown and my HK. Then, we listened to Craig's Jolida tube CD through my Crown, and my Yammy pre. We got a real good idea, and I think we left it at that. Of course, we did listen to Mr. LeMay's set up as he runs it, too (a must for any audio fan). I think that covers all our switching-around. Correct me if I'm wrong, Craig.

First, the VRD's, using my Yammy pre and HK CD. "That was a damn impressive 90 watts per channel," I told Craig. Craig said "It's only 60 watts per channel." There you go!

NosValves' 60 watt per channel tubes run about neck and neck with my Crown's 310 watts per channel on the power end. Something I've never - ever - seen a receiver of the same or greater power do, I don't care which department store you bought it from.

Although my Crown delivers more power, you won't miss it with the VRD's. The extra power in my Crown goes nowhere as I can never turn the volume up enough to deliver it all - not even with these deaf ears. So, with the VRD's, turn the dial just a little more, and you won't miss a thing when it comes to power. In all, the dynamics quality between the 2 was very comparable, which means you have a hellacious 60-watts going.

The VRD's were very clean, and they took away some of the - what I would say most of you call - "brightness." I wont by any means say my Crown is all that bright, but I could sense a bit of brightness reduction. All in all, if you're into tubes and want the pounding quality of mega-watt amps, the VRD's provide as much slam as my 310-watt Crown! I will never again say a good set of tubes can't punch like my Crown - at least when you mention VRD's.

Next: NosValves' Scott tube pre-amp re-build with my Crown and HK CD. DeanG, I liquefied my Crown. The difference was obvious. Of course, I've been using Steely Dan as a reference lately, so I stuck with that. Here is what "liquefied" sounds like....

Most notably...... The veins in Donald Fagan's neck weren't showing. [] Mr. LeMay and I agreed that my set-up as-is was very, very good and pretty much all a person could want - unless you want that final tweak. I say "tweak" in a good way, as it was a "you knew it in 3-seconds" difference when we liquefied the Crown. Will I keep what I have? Yes. I think Craig will vouch that what I have is far from the "pedestrian" label that some folks want to attach to a seriously good solid state system.

But, since this was the most notable distinction of all swaps we made, I would rate it like this:

If the NosValve's Scott tube pre-amp on my Crown amp is a 10 (for argument's sake, so dont get your panties in a ruffle), my set-up is a 9.3. For those of you who need a 10, as Dean says, "liquefy your SS amp with a nice tube pre-amp." That was the most obvious difference in all of our testing.

Next: a Jolida tube CD with my Crown and Yammy pre-amp. Unremarkable. It was roughly the same as my HK CD. But I bought my HK CD back around '87 or '88. It was a model that sold for over $500 back then, so I imagine when you account for inflation, it was designed to keep up with the tube CD quality.

On a final note. Let's talk corners. There's been this on-going discussion about KHorns and their "picky" desire for corners. As I stated, baloney! It just so-happened that Craig LeMay's KHorns were not snug in his corners at all - somewhat surprising with the grade of audio equipment this wealthy drummer-pro from Houston is sporting. Actually, half of the corner was missing from his right KHorn. The missing half opened into his entry-way. And both KHorns were away from the wall about 6 inches or so. And guess what? They were as beautiful-sounding as Khorns should be. Meagain, FYI. I hope this helps.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

So, in conclusion, I learned a little something both ways on this. I learned that my set-up is what I always thought it was fantastic in the sense that I compared it to the reference items you all recommended and found it neck and neck with it, except for a twinge of brightness. I also learned that, with lower-powered tubes, you can get just as fantastic and a smidge better (or if youre the type that really gets freaked by a twinge of brightness, moderately better).

Thank you, all, for the fun, the enlightenment - and even the patience. More fun to come, I am sure.

Dean, your advice is good - at least sometimes. []

NosValves, you are a go-to guy for tubes! You do good work.

For me, I'm gonna stay pig-headed because that's my nature. You all showed me - at least in regards to what I saw today - a modest step up. I'd say from a 9.3 to a 10. Craig LeMay, feel free to chime in on this. So folks, kindly stop telling me I'm running a 6 or 7 - ok? []

On an aside, we all need to pitch in and buy Mr. LeMay a box of high-grade fuses for his KHorns. With all that money he spends on his house, drums and hi-fi, he cant afford fuses above 2.5 amps. We blew about 3 fuses. The first time scared me to death. I thought Oh my God!!!! I just met the guy and blew his Khorn in 10 minutes. [:'(] Ive never blown a fuse in my KHorns, and I push them easily as hard. We both wondered if there was a specific recommended amperage for KHorns. Anybody know?

Thank you, Craig LeMay, for your hospitality and the open door. It was a real treat. Keep on rocking and doing what you do. You're a great, down-to-earth guy, and I look forward to seeing you again.

Cheers! []

[Deang]

I want to know what you thought about the sound of your gear on Craig's K-horns compared to yours.

[Cal Blacksmith]

.............

Now to hi-fi. Guess what? Craig also has an SPL meter he coincidentally had laying around. For those who just had to know how deaf I am, we listened to a steady 110-112 dB with about 116 dB peaks measured at 14.5 feet from the speakers. So, you do the math. That's the rockin' I'm talking about..........

With Khorns, about 6 to 12 watts.

Thats the math I'M TALKIN ABOUT![]

Honestly, in a head to head with the VRDs, my Sonic Frontiers Power 1s 45wpc sound just as good (if not just a slight tad better to me[6])

The first watt is the most important, we kept tellin ya[][][]

[Jeff Matthews]

I want to know what you thought about the sound of your gear on Craig's K-horns compared to yours.

I wonder why..... []

Well, we went there. I asked him about his xovers because I did notice a difference. I thought the squawks were more subdued. But, I also noticed that there were 2 huge distinctions in lay-out. His KHorns were a few feet wider apart than mine (about 4 or so), and they were pointed where the sweet spot is 14.5 feet away. Mine are pointed where the sweet spot is about 5 feet away. So, on mine the squawks are right up on your ears compared to Craig's. I noticed this as I was in front of his system, so the sweet spot was pointed about 8 or 9 feet behind me. We did listen from the 14.5-foot distance, and by then, I wasn't prepared to judge on speaker comparisons - it just sorted of all flowed together where our focus was on the other components.

Want to box some up for a postage-risk-only try-out? I'll promise a review. []

They did sound different, though - whether it was xovers or room lay-out, or both.

BTW: I had to laugh a little when reviewing this because you MUST be wondering whythe position of the sweet spot in my room is only 5 feet away. My room is 10 x 9. [] Actually, I have my speakers behind me when I play drums, so that I can reach back and control the stereo and pop in different CD's without getting up from the throne.

[Jeff Matthews]

The first watt is the most important, we kept tellin ya[][][]

Yes, you did. [:$]

I have only 2 sets of past observations that led me to this error. One is, I've never seen a department store grade receiver produce the same quality of slam, although I have seen many get plenty loud. The second is I've heard McIntosh amps/receivers at Home Entertainment (now Tweeter) on a number of occasions many years ago, and while they sounded pretty good, they never seemed to crank. My guess is the salesman were just not going to crank it out of fear - or out of thinking I wasn't interested in hearing 115dB. All said and done for me, I found my Crown jewel. And with its pedestrian price, it certainly did everything the McIntosh did for sure, and then some.

Anybody agree Craig and I were listening to 6-12 watts?

[Jeff Matthews]

Cal, please explicame this:

Why, if the first watt is so important, does my cheap Wal-Mart Sony 5.1 Receiver not do diddly squat? I don't know how many watts it was - I remember the box saying (to me) it's enough to crank. Well, it's not. Not even close. It couldn't even BUDGE the woofers on my Corns. It was just a dumb little test I wanted to try after I got KHorns and moved the Corns downstairs to the TV room.

So, why can't Sony's first watt compare to NosValves' first watt, your first watt or my first watt. If it's not the watt that gives the slam, what is it? MaxG stated in an earlier post he thought it had to do with the size of the power supply (and its resistance?). Is this true? I would think that if it is, you could upgrade the power supply on any piece of junk for a modest price and get all the slam you want for under $150.

[Allan Songer]

Because the first watt of the Wal*Mart Sony is LOUSY!

[Jeff Matthews]

Because the first watt of the Wal*Mart Sony is LOUSY!

But what is it that is not associated with, or in, that first Wal-Mart Sony watt that is otherwise in, or associated with, the first watt of good equipment?

[maxg]

Did you do any listening at more moderate volumes? I would guess differences would be more obvious (in favour of the tubes) where impending deafenss is not an issue[]

"Anybody agree Craig and I were listening to 6-12 watts? "

Not according to my maths - not at that distance.

For arguments sake 14.5 FT is about 4 meters. If you drop 6 dB for every doubling of distance I reckon you were really pushing Craigs' amp to, if not beyond its limit. At 116 dB it must have been clipping - unless Nosvalves installed a bit more headroom that we are aware of. Of course tubes do clip more benignly than SS amps.

Also - the compression loading at the throat of the Horn means you were at the absolute limits of the Khorn too...

For a 104 dB/w/m senstive speaker 64 watts gives 122 dB @ 1 meter.

Lose 12 for the distance.*

Add 6 for the second speaker.*

Gives you 116 dB @ 64 watts for your peak.

A constant figure of 112 dB (@ 4 meters), on the other hand, is a mere 31 watts or thereabouts.

* - neither cast in stone - but it should be around these figures.

All in all - with these volume levels - stay with what you have - there is little point in discussing quality here - frankly I am amazed you heard any difference at all. Certainly explains why you cant hear old/bad Xover's from new ones.

[sfogg]

" Well, it's not. Not even close. It couldn't even BUDGE the woofers on my Corns. "

Then it simply has lousy frequency response. That or you had the L/R outputs high passed (set to small) and didn't know it.

Shawn

[Jeff Matthews]

Max, we listened at moderate volumes, too, although not whisper levels. The review stands across the board, except for low volumes - we did not bother with that.

And liquefying the Crown with the Scott tubes was very noticeable.

It's good to see we have disagreement on the wattage we were pushing. Wonder where this will fall out. So many, with so much scientific, knowledge; yet, so little agreement.

At least you showed the math....

Craig LeMay can probably chime in to give his take on what we heard/didn't hear.

[Jeff Matthews]

" Well, it's not. Not even close. It couldn't even BUDGE the woofers on my Corns. " Then it simply has lousy frequency response. That or you had the L/R outputs high passed (set to small) and didn't know it. Shawn

What do you mean set to "small?" Please explain wiring or whatever you are referring to.

[sfogg]

Were the SPL measurements made 'A' or 'C' weighted?

'C' weighted could be inflated from room modes which could mean the actual SPL levels at higher frequencies were quite a bit lower. Room modes can influence those numbers 10dB or more if you measure in a peak position.

As far as the wattage is concerned Max's guesstimate sounds fairly close if the measurements aren't being influenced by a room mode. If the room modes were inflating the SPL numbers then the power levels would be lower.

The drop off from distance won't be as bad as Max posted though because of reflections.

The calculator here:

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

gives 118dB from 60w into a pair of K'Horns in corners at 14 feet away for example.

Shawn

[Jeff Matthews]

Were the SPL measurements made 'A' or 'C' weighted?

....

Shawn

Craig would have to answer this.

[Woodog]

Which Scott pre-amp? I looked at the post but couldn't see it mentioned.

Thanks,

Woo

[Jeff Matthews]

Look at Craig LeMay's (Born2RockU's) profile. I think its a Scott 130 tube pre that was freshened/rebuilt by Craig Otsby (NosValves).

Based on what I heard, I would recommend it - but you would need to know that the difference probably comes from NosValves' work.

[Cal Blacksmith]

I was www

wwwwr

wwwweeerr

wwwrrro...............

errr!

WWWWWRRRRRooo

Not quite right! LOL[]

but I was only off by about 5 db[][]

From Max's statement:

"A constant figure of 112 dB (@ 4 meters), on the other hand, is a mere 31 watts or thereabouts."

3 db reduction would be 15.5 w and another 3db reduction would be 7.25w

it was off the top of my head I came up with 6 to 12 so I didn't quite get the boat to the dock.

Sorry[][]

[maxg]

Me too cal.

As Shawn pointed out - room reflections - never take those into account - know I should - but it might be a very big room.

Would also be surprised if the listening position would be at a room node boosting the SPL by 10 dB - a corner maybe - but I would imagine the listening position should be more central and less likely to be a node.

[Duke Spinner]

NosValves' 60 watt per channel tubes run about neck and neck with my Crown's 310 watts per channel on the power end. Something I've never - ever - seen a receiver of the same or greater power do, I don't care which department store you bought it from.

You are not using anywhere's near the total power your MT can deliver......

there's nooo way with Klipsch that you could

even with Your hearing .......[]

[NOSValves]

Did you do any listening at more moderate volumes? I would guess differences would be more obvious (in favour of the tubes) where impending deafenss is not an issue[]

"Anybody agree Craig and I were listening to 6-12 watts? "

Not according to my maths - not at that distance.

For arguments sake 14.5 FT is about 4 meters. If you drop 6 dB for every doubling of distance I reckon you were really pushing Craigs' amp to, if not beyond its limit. At 116 dB it must have been clipping - unless Nosvalves installed a bit more headroom that we are aware of. Of course tubes do clip more benignly than SS amps.

Also - the compression loading at the throat of the Horn means you were at the absolute limits of the Khorn too...

For a 104 dB/w/m senstive speaker 64 watts gives 122 dB @ 1 meter.

Lose 12 for the distance.*

Add 6 for the second speaker.*

Gives you 116 dB @ 64 watts for your peak.

A constant figure of 112 dB (@ 4 meters), on the other hand, is a mere 31 watts or thereabouts.

* - neither cast in stone - but it should be around these figures.

All in all - with these volume levels - stay with what you have - there is little point in discussing quality here - frankly I am amazed you heard any difference at all. Certainly explains why you cant hear old/bad Xover's from new ones.

This was my point in the other thread where I stated tubes would be a waste for old Jeff.

What I'm curious about is I got a email from Craig last night that one of his KT88 is cold stone dead I wonder if it was replaced before this session? If one of the amps was running with a dead tube and neither of these guys could hear the difference maybe I should go single ended[]

Craig