efzauner Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 If Litz wire makes so much difference in the inductdor, would it also make a difference if you wind the autoformer out of litz wire too? What about winding the speaker voice coil out of Litz wire? You could cut out an ohm or so no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Dean: Well said. Given your experience, I was hoping we could find a way to market your ears. A few catch phrases if you will: "Dean-sonics" "Deansurround"..or my favorite...."Deanamic sound"Let me know. I would be happy to be an exclusive distributor. We don't need no stinkin' math...;>).Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 If Litz wire makes so much difference in the inductdor, would it also make a difference if you wind the autoformer out of litz wire too? What about winding the speaker voice coil out of Litz wire? You could cut out an ohm or so no? I have to go home from work now, but I'll tune in this evening to read your spanking from the Klappenstick.[6][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 Dean, Your ears are as good as anybody elses to tune by. At least you have made an attempt at being objective about. Your opinion is one of several I listen to. The probelm I have isn't that I can't hear differences, I just have a memory of what I heard last that is about 2 seconds long! I absolutely have to have an A/B switch to make any kind of meaningfull comparison. That's also very hard when neither A or B is a known standard like true reality! Just becasue A sounds different then B is doesn't meand A or B is BETTER than the other. You got to compare each with reality, and what if you can't remeber what reality sounds like! That's why I stick to measurements! I never can. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 If Litz wire makes so much difference in the inductdor, would it also make a difference if you wind the autoformer out of litz wire too? What about winding the speaker voice coil out of Litz wire? You could cut out an ohm or so no? The goals are different than an inductor with voice coils and transformers. A voice coil needs to have the lowest mass (weight) with the least resistance. That calls for aluminum wire with a square cross section, not round. A transformer requires the tightest coupling between windings with the lowest DC resistance. Litz wire has lots of wasted air space between strands. Weight is not a factor so soild copper is best. Q is not a factor in either case. It's only a factor in a pure inductance to be used as an inductance. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Don't forget that a VC needs to be able to withstand insane temperatures too...(and ideally not change its properties in the process). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psypathic Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I personaly don't think the measurements have all that much to do with it. All the parts interact differntly with each other. So it might sound good in one cuircut but sound like crap in the other. Nothing is going to sound like "reality" so you do what you think sounds best. I listen to all differnt types of networks at my dads. Sometimes it makes sence on paper or whatever and ends up not sounding all that good. Thats just my opinion. BTW: I recenty heard some pretty good networks using copper foil inductors. Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Austin, I believe measurement has a LOT to do with analyzing what one hears. The probalm is that averyong hears differently. That makes measurements the only reliable reference so long as you are measureing the right thing. Where a panel of listeners (not just one) come into the picture, is to determing if you are measuring everything relavant. Sure, the foil inductors a very good, but the measurements show that there is something that is slightly better for a lower cost (litz) that you would not know about otherwise. Besides, how much instrument measurements have YOU made? Do you have any instruments in the first place? If not, how can you say they are not relavant? Everybody has a set of ears but few people have instruments and know what to measure and how to interpret those measurements. It isn't hard to understand why most people rely on thier ears. That's all they have! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Al: For better or worse, "ears is all (most people) have" because: 1) Not everyone has a technical education 2) Not everyone is interested in owning test equipment 3) Not everyone knows how to use test equipment and would understand the measurements 4) Not everyone can AFFORD test equipment I would have to say that your position is certainly unique, as you are skilled/adept in all these areas, and that is a GOOD THING for the rest of us. Still, most folks are going to have to rely on their ears, which have signatures as unique as a fingerprint, one person's never being the same as another. FWIW, as someone with a tech background and career, I DO recognize and embrace the value of measurement and references, for without them, nothing would be truly understood. Mathematics (the root of measurement) is the only universal language which transcends all toungues. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 To many of us Al, you are E. F. Hutton. Al speaks, we listen. I just wish there was a source in the States for Litzwire inductors. I wound some of my own but it was a royal PITA and no cheaper really. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Have you tried Solen near Montreal? Do they not ship to the US? It really should not be a problem. I live with shipping from the US all the time. I try to use USPS because when it comes into Canada it is Canada Post that handles it and they are kind when it comes to customs and fees. We really are civilized up her, not ALL goods go via dog sled! If you are having difficulties and really want litz inductors from Solen, I can get some for you and put them in a little brown box in the mail Can you pay via pay pal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psypathic Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 "Sure, the foil inductors a very good, but the measurements show that there is something that is slightly better for a lower cost (litz) that you would not know about otherwise." Would you of known that the litz are better if you didn't measure them? What I'm saying is if you measure everything and only use what measures good you'll never know if the others sound better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 If all we do is connect stuff to our systems without understanding the science then we are reduced to being alchemists and snake oil believers. Eventually you *may* find something that sounds better, but you may also blow up your equipment in the process, and you may delude yourself into believing that you can hear a difference. We are now in the 21st century and the scientific method has been with us for a few hundred years now. By applying science to understand what is going on and make educated decisions on what will and will not make a difference in sound, we are increasing our chances of success dramatically. Science can measure light from the big bang 15 billion years ago, put a man on the moon, measure and display our brain activity in 3D colour, replicate DNA, etc. Why do you think that science has no place in audio? You would not stand for your mechanic, dentist, doctor, stockbroker, (gardener for that matter) trying things out without having a clue as to what is going on and evaluating the result without a valid test. Why do audiophiles insist on trying things out without having a clue? The placebo effect is well known in medicine, I am suggesting that it also works for audiophiles. If you want it to sound better, it will sound better 30% of the time! By all means put dead cats under your speaker wire, but at least do a double blind test to see if it makes a difference compared to a stuffed cat, or no cat at all. The alchemist may have tried things out without knowing a thing about why, but at least they made proper observations and took good notes so that they could decide if they were getting results or not. Some audiophiles don't even want to make proper tests! Now, go and kill some cats, but don't let the SPCA catch on to what you are doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 The only people that reject measuring are those that don't understand it... The subjects of acoustics and analog signal processing are very well understood by scientists. And all of the audio technology on the market is a direct product of this science. However, good engineering is an art form where one must maximize performance in an imperfect world while also pulling a profit (for without profit there can be no research). And this is where marketing misleads the general public - placing emphasis on stupid things that "make sense." Heck, even the sensitivity rating which we all adore klipsch for is also misleading - it's the efficiency of the system that matters, not the 2.83V sensitivity. Or how bout those 10,000W speakers that have a 55dB sensitivity? The market sees 10,000W and starts ooo'ing and ah'ing. Anyways, the "psuedo marketing science" is by no means the same thing as the science going on with the people actually producing the products. To confuse the two and then discount science altogether just shows a lack of understanding...because with understanding becomes the ability to differentiate between the two. In regards to psychoacoustics and the placebo effect...I can think of so many examples where a person's mind can compensate for 10,20dB differences in volume! My favorite one is that of the lead singer....they always want more of them in the monitor and you simply can't give them everything because of feedback (heck, we can even calculate the maximum gain before feedback). So when I come across an inexperienced singer that just keeps asking for more, I eventually just turn them completely off in the monitor....and the best part is because they are expecting it to be louder and shift focus to their voice, they will actually percieve it as louder. I have even done this on occasion to professional experienced singers (just to drop a name...professional opera singer Philip Webb...just one of the guys that sits for Pavoratti.....). Surely an experienced professional should be far more picky than a mere amateur.... So to bring this back to crossovers...we're talking rather minor changes in the sound between different components. Like on the order of +-1dB. Without extensive measuring equipment, I'm not sure anyone would be capable of dialing something in to that accuracy by ear, even after a lot of ear training...there is simply no way to know what to focus on, let alone trying to keep the same focus everytime. And I won't even touch the subject of flaws in the source material resulting in an incorrect tuning... Ever turn a knob and hearing a difference, only to learn that knob has been bypassed and actually wasn't making a difference? It's a trick I pull on my trainees all the time when teaching them how to EQ. The most important thing is knowing what change needs to be made ahead of time, but then you must listen to the change as you turn the knob without focusing on the change itself, but rather focusing on the instrument. Bypass the EQ on them and it becomes clear that when they hear a change, that they were focusing on the wrong thing. These mind games are the fundamental key to being a good mixer...I don't profess to be the best mixer in the world, but I have messed around with these mind games enough to know how important they are...and it carries down into all fields of audio - especially in the audiophool market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 By all means put dead cats under your speaker wire, but at least do a double blind test to see if it makes a difference compared to a stuffed cat, or no cat at all. You've got it all Wrong ....!!! Dead Cats .. have to be hung in the room to make a proper difference ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Duke: I have been using short haired tabby cats exclusively. Do you feel that Himalayans would be better, or does the static charge in the long hair tend to create eddy currents that mess with the signal? I WANT to get this right, thanks! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 popbumper: this is really a matter of personal taste. The key, like I mentioned in my post, is that you do double blind tests. I personally cannot tell the difference betweet persians and siameese, but some discerning audiophile may be able to. Theoretically the persian's thinker hair should absorb some of the base, making a deader sounding room. I cannot stand live cats myself because of severe alergies. I prefer dead ones. The problem is that dead ones shed fur after a few weeks, and thus the acoustic properties are changed. I wish there was a better solution to this. Maybe if I brush the cat with one of those ceramic, negative ion generating curling irons the fur will last longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Duke: I have been using short haired tabby cats exclusively. Do you feel that Himalayans would be better, or does the static charge in the long hair tend to create eddy currents that mess with the signal? I WANT to get this right, thanks! Chris any Sound Man worth his salt ... knows tabbys hang the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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