BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 It's in your brain. Your brain thinks, hey I've spent time and $ doing this, now it should sound different. Then you convince yourself that it is different, then it is different. Then, rather than just admitting that you've wasted time and $, you tell somebody else how brilliant you are and that they should try it. I'd like to see blind AB tests, without any knowledge beforehand. Betcha it's 50/50. Give me another vote Crites... BS Perception is reality, or is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Actually I should have counted PWKs vote as at least 20. I did a google search on -Paul Klipsch audio genius- and got 20,300 hits. One was a quote by ALK. Got no hits with audio genius on the rest of the voters. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 BS, "you tell somebody else how brilliant you are and that they should try it. " Nahhh, just taking a page from some of the earliest horn users in the industry who made very heavily damped horns. Ever seen a tar filled Altec? That is an awful lot of extra work, weight and expense if someone didn't think it was worth it. Or the later Aquaplas coated ones from the factory? Or the 511Bs that came from the factory modified to incease the internal damping of them. Resonances are bad, they hide detail. "Then, rather than just admitting that you've wasted time and $" $5 and maybe 10 minutes time in my case. I did try more damping on one 511B but I didn't notice any difference them from the simple damping in the lip of the horn. You wanna run a double blind test with my clap test on the 511b? I'm game.... Bob, "Actually I should have counted PWKs vote as at least 20." Remember that when you read about the new improved K-401. "Got no hits with audio genius on the rest of the voters." Really? I came up with 16,000. You had 209. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 And the new and improved K401 costs how much vs. the older cast aluminum? And Marketing plays games with your head? Hey, if you think it sounds better, then have at it. Go ahead, put it on some woofers and tweeters, too. As soon as you mount the thing on the motorboard tightly with a gasket of some sort and you put a driver on the other end with a gasket and the wall's are of sufficient thickness, then you may produce a slightly different sound, but I don't think any of us could tell much difference, not worth mentioning anyway. Why dontcha just go get the things coated with a spray on truck bed liner? At least it would look good, you could pick your own color and it would be rather permanent. But, wait, then, well, yes, rope caulk might work better or sound different. Or maybe you could create some hollow walls in those babies and come up with a "tar filled" version and a story worth thousands of $$? Tar, mmm, think about that? Why would they use tar? Why not something else, like visco-elastic liquid developed by NASA? Yeah, that's the ticket. I suppose the reason this bugs me so much is because I spent nearly two hours cleaning off a pair of k400's that had been Dynamatted. I took the crap off, had them sandblasted and polished a bit and they sold for $305.16. BS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 " And the new and improved K401 costs how much vs. the older cast aluminum?" Exactly the point. Who cares what PWK said either way..... So you don't want to do the double blind clap test on the 511b? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 " And the new and improved K401 costs how much vs. the older cast aluminum?" Exactly the point. Who cares what PWK said either way..... So you don't want to do the double blind clap test on the 511b? Shawn OK, but only if it's a tar filled version against the stock 511b, cuz I can pick those tar filled versions out of a crowd everytime. I don't recall the double blind clap test. Is that a new cd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 " And the new and improved K401 costs how much vs. the older cast aluminum?" And your answer to the question? Exactly the point. Who cares what PWK said either way..... So you don't want to do the double blind clap test on the 511b? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 "As soon as you mount the thing on the motorboard tightly with a gasket of some sort and you put a driver on the other end with a gasket and the wall's are of sufficient thickness, then you may produce a slightly different sound, but I don't think any of us could tell much difference, not worth mentioning anyway." I already said the difference on the clap test was audible under exactly those conditions. I could set a 511B to ringing from across the room without the damping on them. With a bit of plumbers putty on them I could no longer do that. That benefit was worth $5 to me. You are the one that wanted to a double blind test for this. I offered to take one. Now you ridicule the idea... that makes sense. "Why dontcha just go get the things coated with a spray on truck bed liner?" The horns I'm using now were coated with Aquaplas (sort of like that stuff) from the factory.... decades ago. But you are right... companies like Altec and JBL don't have a clue what they are doing.... neither does Klipsch I suppose since they have made changes to deal with resonances in their speakers over the years too. "$$? Tar, mmm, think about that? Why would they use tar? Why not something else, like visco-elastic liquid developed by NASA?" Maybe because this preceded NASA by decades???? And it was done long before 'hi-fi' and all the marketing that went along with it. "had them sandblasted and polished a bit and they sold for $305.16." Proof that people will overpay for mediocrity.... " And your answer to the question?" Exactly. I was saying that to Bob because he was the one who brought up what PWK said/did about caulking the K400. If Bob wants to stick with what PWK says/does that means he also has to stick with what was said about the K401 and how it improved over the K400. To me, and others, we don't base our choices on what PWK said or did. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 How did this discussion of the K-400 get to be about the 511B. I would certainly agree that the 511B needs damping and any other help it can get. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 "As soon as you mount the thing on the motorboard tightly with a gasket of some sort and you put a driver on the other end with a gasket and the wall's are of sufficient thickness, then you may produce a slightly different sound, but I don't think any of us could tell much difference, not worth mentioning anyway." I already said the difference on the clap test was audible under exactly those conditions. The world according to Sfogg "Why dontcha just go get the things coated with a spray on truck bed liner?" The horns I'm using now were coated with Aquaplas (sort of like that stuff) from the factory.... decades ago. Good point But you are right... companies like Altec and JBL don't have a clue what they are doing.... neither does Klipsch I suppose since they have made changes to deal with resonances in their speakers over the years too. Looks like Klipsch didn't know what they were doing for oh, 30 years, or so, then, eh? Maybe because this preceded NASA by decades???? And it was done long before 'hi-fi' and all the marketing that went along with it. And because it preceeded NASA and Hi-Fi, that means, you are correct. If Bob wants to stick with what PWK says/does that means he also has to stick with (wrong, Bob can stick with whatever he wants and so can you and I, for that matter).what was said about the K401 and how it improved over the K400. To me, and others, we don't base our choices on what PWK said or did. That's an amazingly respectful comment, given the very forum on which it was posted. And you have never said which pair of PWK speakers you own, so by default, you freely admit that you do base your choices on what PWK did, anyway, if you own a pair of his speakers? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 " The world according to Sfogg" Real simple test for anyone here to determine which one of us is full of s%@t.... Download these two wave files... http://home.comcast.net/~shawnfogg/pics/test1.wav http://home.comcast.net/~shawnfogg/pics/test2.wav And listen to them. Shawn Anyone want to guess which is undamped and which is damped? It really shouldn't take much of a guess.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Shawn, Could you attach? I'm also not very well read on the computer thingy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 The forum doesn't allow wave file attachments. Try these... maybe... Test1 Test2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Test 2 ring Test 1 none Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Glad the links worked for you. I'll post the identities tomorrow after some more people have a chance to try it and post their answers. You wanted a blind A/B test... you got one... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Glad the links worked for you. I'll post the identities tomorrow after some more people have a chance to try it and post their answers. You wanted a blind A/B test... you got one... Shawn This is on the 400 horn, mounted properly in a Klipsch cabinet? With and without rope caulk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Todd -- you are on the wrong side of this argument. The problem with worshipping the ground someone walks on is that it keeps your nose so close to the ground you can't see they're leading you into a ditch. The resonant behavior of horns when exposed to mechanical or acoustical vibration is so well established it's beyond dispute. The only people who don't 'get it' (along with about a half dozen other things) are those who like to pretend an old Klipsch speaker performs and sounds better than any other speaker on the planet -- which of course is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Let's leave all the ground worshiping and puttying of Shawn's lips out of this. What in the world does all this have to do with whether or not a properly mounted K-400 horn needs damping? Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Todd -- you are on the wrong side of this argument. The problem with worshipping the ground someone walks on is that it keeps your nose so close to the ground you can't see they're leading you into a ditch. The resonant behavior of horns when exposed to mechanical or acoustical vibration is so well established it's beyond dispute. The only people who don't 'get it' (along with about a half dozen other things) are those who like to pretend an old Klipsch speaker performs and sounds better than any other speaker on the planet -- which of course is ridiculous. I think one with a better crossover sounds better than any other speaker on the planet. Hell, at least, we are all in the horn camp. Ever try to reason with someone who is not? They'll cover their mouth with cupped hands and holler "this is a horn", then I'll always remind them where their vocal cords are and that their mouth and throat is a horn.I readily admit that there is a difference and that it is probably, well documented, but I do not readily admit that the older cast aluminum K400 without rope caulk audibly rings when mounted properly, nor do I admit that the rope caulked 400 sounds better than one that is not. I've never heard a 511. This is all I'm trying to say here. I don't think this matters anywhere near as much as a crossover tweak, do you? People can do whatever they want, and I'm sure that these speakers have been and will continue to be improved upon, but when you take and Klipschorn, re-design a crossover, insert a 511B, put in false corners, cut another hole in the motorboard and mount a 2404, you have not, a Klipschorn. Think about vintage auto's. I've got a tremendous amount of respect for those who create there own similar designs. Also, heavily disrespecting and criticizing the opinions of Paul Klipsch on the Klipsch forum and about Klipsch speakers is, of course, ridiculous. I guess I'm in the "don't get it" crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 No, this is for what we were discussing... a 511B with and without a bit of Plumbers putty on one of the lips. To which you responded... It's in your brain. Your brain thinks, hey I've spent time and $ doing this, now it should sound different. Then you convince yourself that it is different, then it is different. Then, rather than just admitting that you've wasted time and $, you tell somebody else how brilliant you are and that they should try it. I'd like to see blind AB tests, without any knowledge beforehand. Betcha it's 50/50. Give me another vote Crites... BS Perception is reality, or is it? And.... Hey, if you think it sounds better, then have at it. Go ahead, put it on some woofers and tweeters, too. As soon as you mount the thing on the motorboard tightly with a gasket of some sort and you put a driver on the other end with a gasket and the wall's are of sufficient thickness, then you may produce a slightly different sound, but I don't think any of us could tell much difference, not worth mentioning anyway. Why dontcha just go get the things coated with a spray on truck bed liner? At least it would look good, you could pick your own color and it would be rather permanent. But, wait, then, well, yes, rope caulk might work better or sound different. Or maybe you could create some hollow walls in those babies and come up with a "tar filled" version and a story worth thousands of $$? Tar, mmm, think about that? Why would they use tar? Why not something else, like visco-elastic liquid developed by NASA? Yeah, that's the ticket. And.... OK, but only if it's a tar filled version against the stock 511b, cuz I can pick those tar filled versions out of a crowd everytime. I don't recall the double blind clap test. Is that a new cd? And.... The world according to Sfogg And..... And because it preceeded NASA and Hi-Fi, that means, you are correct. Among others. As you now realize the difference I was talking about is obvious and easy to hear. And that is the case even when it was recorded using the cheap built in microphone on my laptop. You really didn't leave yourself room to backpedal. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.