Sunfire and Klipsch ref

[wdrazek]

In my HT I run Klipsch ref (RVX42's, RSX5's) with a Sunfire True subwoofer. Love it. No hole in the upper bass, great impact and extention to 16 hz. Fine.

Has anyone tried a Sunfire with the smaller ref's - namely the RVX 5's or the RVX 4's? I'd be interested to know for a compact second room music system. As in the HT room, the Klipsch subs are way too big for my needs.

[Chris Robinson]

Glad you're finding sonic pleasure.

I haven't heard the Sunfire but I know Edster here has one between his Klipschorns and loves it as well. If it mates well with the Klipschorn, it's bound to do pretty well with Reference.

Good luck. Thanks for the listening impressions.

Chris

[TheEAR]

Great subwoofer I had the Sunfire Mark II and it will match great with any Klipsch speakers well as long as these can reach down to 80Hz.

FYI I had the Junior,Mark II and Signature subs,I am one of the first to purchase the Mark II when it came out,a few good years ago.Sold them to get the newer SUnfires with the auto EQ feature.

Sunfire subs have unmatched output for their size,not a trace of boom,very linear across the range they cover.Never had any problems with any of thier subs,and I pushed these hard at times.

[wdrazek]

Thanks for the insight. I'm running an original Sunfire True that I've had for several years. It's never let me down and has matched a number of speakers quite well. I noticed that with very small speakers - the NHT Zero's they had that hole in the upper bass. It's the only match that didn't work.

For the little system I'm thinking about getting a Junior. How did you like it?

[Q-Man]

The Signature has worked well for me with my Klipschorns, I've had it for about six years now. I only blew the driver once, and I'm told by Sunfire that it is very rare to fry one. When they replaced the driver they also updated the amp. for me, because mind didn't have the anti-clipping circuit in it.

I wouldn't recommend using it much above 60 Hz. It's more of a bottom feeder and doesn't like to come up for air.

The sound is good, or I would have replaced it by now. I almost bought another to stack on top of it or place next to it, but I finally found another sub that I want to try.

[TheEAR]

Sunfire subs unlike all the competition ,even as small as they are are true subwoofers.Above 80hz they fall of very sharply.And like Q-man said often times it is better to cut them at 60hz(if mains and pre/pro or receiver permits).

All competing subs will reach much higher in frequency but be less linear and have less output down deep where a sub should .

[wdrazek]

I'm not surprised to hear that these subs should be crossed over fairly low, but below 80 surprises me a little. That's where I have them and they sound OK to me. It could be because crossing them even lower causes a hole with the RVX42's which don't reach down very far. They do mate much better than my old Energy Take 5's did years back.

I wonder if the Junior gives a little more latitude with a higher crossover point since it's a pair of 7's instead of 9's. Just thinking...

[Guest BobG]

Sunfire subs have always gotten positive comments, but I'm surprised to hear they can keep up with Khorns. No sweat at lower levels, but can the Sunfire subs match the Khorns at higher output levels? I'm not talking about headbanger levels but how about 100 dB at the listening position? To track the dynamics of a Khorn is a pretty tough job.

[wdrazek]

The specs clearly indicate that they have high output, if not quite the maximum range of a K-horn. The speed I can't answer as I'm using the RVX series.

The smallest one ioutputs up to 107db at one meter and the True signature does 117db 'very conservatively' according to their website.

[Guest BobG]

Not trying to argue but my experience tells me that MOL is not a good enough indicator of dynamic capability. I recognize the technical capability of the Sunfire products and am not trying to imply anything negative about their producs or performance. From our own efforts in designing subs, I know it's a tough challenge to build a sub that really tracks the dynamics of the Khorn. I've used multiple RSW-15s, multiple (older) SW-15's and other brands I won't name and found that few really made a perfect match to the Khorn. I always found there were sacrifices in the results.

[Q-Man]

Sunfire subs have always gotten positive comments, but I'm surprised to hear they can keep up with Khorns. No sweat at lower levels, but can the Sunfire subs match the Khorns at higher output levels? I'm not talking about headbanger levels but how about 100 dB at the listening position? To track the dynamics of a Khorn is a pretty tough job.

Bob is right!

That is why I blew the driver in mine. In my room the sub can keep up to about 94 db to 98 db. That is the level I call normal listening for me at my listening position. When I'm into the music I will push it to 104 to 106 db. When I do that I have to turn the sub down, because it will bottom out at those levels. So when I keep turning the Klipschorns up past 94 db I'm also turning down the sub volume at the same time. You might not have this problem in a smaller room. My room is 17' x 50' and I have 6 Klipschorns and 4 LaScalas. I use McIntosh amps, so I also have an idea of how much power I am feeding the speakers. When I push the volume to 104 db the meters on the amps read about a steady 20 watts, with peaks up to 200 watts per channel. That is why I said that I think I found another sub that I want to try. That is the Danley DTS-20 horn loaded sub.

The SVS forum had a review with a pair of Klipschorns and the Sunfire Signature, Velodyne HGS-18, and an Ultra pair. I think the HGS-18 came close to keepimg up with the Klipschorns, but none of them could. Maybe the review is still on their website. It was a good review, check and see if it is still on the site. I read it years ago.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Bob the RSW 15 does very well between my k horns upstairs... but not at really loud levels...(read really really loud hahahaha)

I did find, and I am sure you tested this too, the KA 1000 amp and the 2 KSW 120's also do a WONDERFUL job as well.

I know with my La Scalas.... The KA 1000/ 120's combination was / seems to be the right ticket..

You showed a system at last years Pilgrimage in the upstairs conference room. Three La Scalas up front and two Belles in the rears, with Aragon pre and amps equipment and the KSW 120's Subs and KA 1000 amp. I was sold, and immediately ordered it from Ovation here in town.

La Scalas and the THX subs/ amp sure, to me, sound WONDERFUL!!!!

Any comments on your part?

[DrWho]

Not trying to argue but my experience tells me that

MOL is not a good enough indicator of dynamic capability. I recognize

the technical capability of the Sunfire products and am not trying to

imply anything negative about their producs or performance. From

our own efforts in designing subs, I know it's a tough challenge to

build a sub that really tracks the dynamics of the Khorn. I've

used multiple RSW-15s, multiple (older) SW-15's and other brands I

won't name and found that few really made a perfect match to the

Khorn. I always found there were sacrifices in the

results.

So when you guys gonna come out with a product that can keep up? []

[Guest BobG]

IKF, I agree with you about the quality of that system. It was pretty hot.

An interesting thing about Khorns and a few other speakers is their ability to VERY quickly change volume. The kind of changes I mean are not necessarily huge SPL swings of say 6 dB or more. I mean very quick changes of a few dB. Trying to track and mimic those subtle and delicate changes is really tough for a sub. I hate using the term "fast" for a sub because I believe it's a misnomer. The crossover frequency of the sub to the mains will tell you how fast the sub needs to be. I can't actually find the right words to describe what I'm trying to convey here. It is the classic problem of matching a sub to any nimble main speaker. All about dynamic shading. When the sub fails to do that, the sum of sub and mains is somehow less than mains alone. I recall first hearing Martin Logan CLS crossoverless electrostats. Really special (though not on all accounts accurate) sounding. They lacked bass but adding a sub completely destroyed the magic.

At the other extreme, the full majesty of Khorns at high SPL is very, very difficult for most subs and even more challenging for small box subs. We've tried I promise you. Just cannot live with the levels of distortion that result. Perhaps the Danley is the right approach. Sometimes overkill isn't overkill at all, just what's necessary to get the job done right.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Very good points BobG, and thanks for sharing.

I like hearing what people from within Klipsch think too. I am looking forward to going to Hope as well. Would be great to meet people that hand crafted my speakers... Have a great (Safe St Pats) weekend.

And I agree about the dynamics.. From ultra quiet to a creek in say a door off to your right.... Only to have something later in front of you explode... Nothing else comes close... To Klispch IMO.

Roger

[edwinr]

These comments about sub integration are very interesting. I love the sound of the MartinLogans, but regardless of the great work Gayle Martin Sanders has put into the design, there is still some discontinuity in the sound - the dynamic drivers struggle to keep up with the electrostatic panels. ML are obviously working very hard to improve this - I haven't heard the new Summit yet.

In panel speakers, the Magneplanars seem to do it better. Because the panels go lower without the need to cross over to dynamic drivers, the sound is much more coherent and the MG3.6R approaches the Klipschorn for coherency (not loudness though!). I recently heard the 3.6R's integrated with dual active subwoofers (one for each channel). The passive crossover box was set at 70 hz prior to any ampliification. To be frank, while the low level output of this combination was awesome, the coherency and integration was lacking. I preferrred the sound of the 3.6R when it was running full range.

Similarly with the Klipschorn, I haven't heard any sub that will keep up with them. It's that remarkable ability of the Klipschorn to reproduce the micro and macro dynamics of the music that subs have difficulty with. With movies it's not so obvious. I guess my comments apply to the La Scalas too. But because they don't go quite so low, maybe the lack of speed in the sub's response is not quite so obvious.

One solution may be for Klipsch to consider a horn loaded sub woofer option for Heritage range. One that could match with the Klipschorn or La Scala. But of course price and size may very well be a deterrent. It hasn't stopped Avantgarde though!

[OneTwoMany]

I have heard a sub that will keep up no problem.

twin 18's in a box thats taller than an SVS tube Its one of our biggest subwoofers right now, strictly outdoors unless you want to break your house apart, its surprising deep too.

[edwinr]

and...........?

[DrWho]

At the other extreme, the full majesty of Khorns at high SPL is very, very difficult for most subs and even more challenging for small box subs. We've tried I promise you. Just cannot live with the levels of distortion that result. Perhaps the Danley is the right approach. Sometimes overkill isn't overkill at all, just what's necessary to get the job done right.

Well it doesn't have to be a small sub if it's going to be king of the hill. Heck, I look at the performance of the KW-120's and just wonder what klipsch could accomplish with IB, or something big like an 8 cubic foot enclosure. But this is probably where the business dudes behind the curtain poke out their head and remind the engineers to keep it marketable.

Just curious...what specifically are you measuring when referring to the ability of a sub to quickly change volume? (acceleration? some 3rd or 4th order diferential?) I remember Mark mentioning something about power shading at the pilgrimage in Indy last year and I have yet to find any literature on the subject. Are they the same thing? Maybe I'll have to find a brain to pick at the piligrimage...perhaps even bring a journal so I can write down the nitty gritty and then go bug my acoustics professors later on. Understanding the behavior is pretty easy once you've got an equation to work with...or so I'm told []

[edwinr]

Can you really have 'fast' bass. Some speakers sound slow and ponderous. Others sound faster and more dynamic. The slower sounding speakers I've heard feature more bass extension.