jdm56 Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 ...long time passing (sorry, I couldn't help myself.) And for that matter, acoustic suspension speakers seem to be about as rare, too. But seriously folks, try to find one and see how many acoustic suspension subs you can come up with. I think I could point you to maybe a half dozen or so. Cambridge Soundworks subs are ac, I think. ADS has a couple. Infinity has one, etc. My point in asking is I always felt acoustic suspension bass was always the tightest, cleanest, and most extended you could get in a relatively small box. Has CAD made it easier to build good bass reflex subs and speakers, or is the home theater market driving the demand for louder, if boomier ported designs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 I dunno..... I think the market wants smaller and smaller subs that are boomier (bose) and louder designs.... Actually to tell you the truth jdm56, I know very little about acoustic suspension? Do you mean push pull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Velodyne Servo's! Acoustic suspension means a sealed, and not ported or bandpassed enclosure. I use my Orion 10" NT2's in an acoustic suspension HDF box with ultra-linear bass panels the bass is clean, low, precise, and hits like a sledgehammer with my Orion XTR-2150 feeding them. Most of the kids car's I hear sound like ten men beating on the side of an inflated rubber raft, "boing, boing, boing." You sacrifice sheer output with this design but the trade-off is high quality bass response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 lol wow, oops I am building a acoustic suspension subwoofer I guess then.... It has a gradual drop off compared to ports and pr once you pass the fs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Rocket builds a nice 10 and 12"er. I think that there has been a large shift to HT from music as far as sub use goes. The sealed just don't dig as deep as the ported subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 excuse me? past the ports frequency response the sealed kicks it's *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Velodyne, M & K, Bag End... Umm, ok, I can't think of any others at the moment. [:$] It could also be that it's past midnight here and my eyelids are getting very very heavy. [|-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted April 20, 2006 Author Share Posted April 20, 2006 OK, there's more than a half-dozen.[] Still, the overwhelming trend seems to be in favor of bass reflex designs. I checked out the Rocket subs just the other night. They do look impressive, and Mark Schiffter (the head guy at AV123) knows his stuff. BTW, is that a kooky name for a company or what? I just wish there was more variety in the sub market. More affordable, small acoustic suspension designs, more bandpass designs too. Variety is the spice of life! --I think Hugh Hefner said that.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortissimo Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Bearing in mind servos (like velodyne and paradigm) correct problems after they occur. I don't view them as the "best" sub by any means. Although they are great subs. I have a dayton titanic III that is acoustic suspension. 15" with a 1000w amp. It digs deep into the teen's and is very tight and clean. NHT has a nice 12" kit that is acoustic suspension as well. Problem is: look at most of the mass market subs. They are ported, and boomy in the 60-80hz range for HT and don't plumb the depths of the 1st octave with any authority or control. Porting is easier and cheaper to get high output in that range. A good alternative to ported, is the VMPS new larger sub. It now has a 1000W amp and is about $1000. It has a 15" active, 15" passive radiator and a 12" active as well. The output is brutal (like 120db) into the teens, and acts very tight like acoustic suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 "Bearing in mind servos (like velodyne and paradigm) correct problems after they occur" This could not be more wrong, the accelerometer monitors cone movement 1000's of times a second to ensure the cleanest, deepest bass response possible and does not allow any distortion whatsoever! This is accomplished on the fly not as an afterthought. "ported goes deeper than sealed" Huhhhh? Where did you read that? Sealed designs go deeper than ported versions and the bass is much smoother and controlled. The trade off is they require more power and they sacrifice some output but the bass response is of higher quality though. Don't even think of putting that Dayton in the class of the Velodyne Servo's not even close. I'll put one of my Velodyne's up against that Dayton anywhere, anytime but be prepared to get spanked. Some of you guys need to do some more research before spouting off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortissimo Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 "Bearing in mind servos (like velodyne and paradigm) correct problems after they occur" This could not be more wrong, the accelerometer monitors cone movement 1000's of times a second to ensure the cleanest, deepest bass response possible and does not allow any distortion whatsoever! --Umm, you are obviously not an engineer. You have such a rudimentary understanding of phsyics and electronics. An accelerometer takes readings and cannot act ahead of time, therefeore the correction is after the fact. You are reading ad hype, not understanding what it means. Don't even think of attempting to explain what you don't understand. The additional fact is that the servo acts as an interrupt to the musical signal and introduces omissions and distortions of it's own. That is very audible when switching between techo and classical. "ported goes deeper than sealed" Huhhhh? Where did you read that? --Where did I say that? It's easier for a cheap ported sub to produce bass louder at 30hz with less amplification than a sealed enclosure. let's not go overboard. I suggest you read up on things starting with Vance Dickasons "loudspeaker design cookbook" and various articles by Tom Nousaine. They conceal that type of information in books. Don't even think of putting that Dayton in the class of the Velodyne Servo's not even close. I'll put one of my Velodyne's up against that Dayton anywhere, anytime but be prepared to get spanked. Some of you guys need to do some more research before spouting off. --Yes I agree, you need to. Also, you need to learn how to read a post. I would be embarrased if you graduated from Harwood Union high school with that lack of English skill. I apologize if English is your second language. The VMPS has no servo, but it has equal output to the ULD-18 and the FSR series. Both in extension and SPL. The dayton titanic only costs $700 yet it does a measured 110db at 20hz. it is admirably close to the FSR-15's output. You have obviously never built a sub or speakers, otherwise you would know that. SVS and HSU subs also have similar output with no servo. I suggest you do a lot of studying before you spout off. You are way out of your depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Well Mr. Genuis, there are pros and cons, compromises and trade off's to all subwoofer designs. I don't need to be an engineer to know what sounds better my ears tell me that. However, the bottom line is the Dayton Titanic ain't no Velodyne, nor can it perform as cleanly at any frequency. Close doesn't count in any contest or race by they way, I thought you were smart enough to realize that. As he said with his best gradeated der 6th grade English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 I love lamp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWOOFER Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 There are plenty of acoustic suspension subs.The most notable are from Velodyne(SPL and HGS/DD series). These subs while sacrificing ultimate output for depth offer quality over quantity.These days most newbs talk about output,as they forget how low distortion and bass quality is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWOOFER Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 "Bearing in mind servos (like velodyne and paradigm) correct problems after they occur" This could not be more wrong, the accelerometer monitors cone movement 1000's of times a second to ensure the cleanest, deepest bass response possible and does not allow any distortion whatsoever! This is accomplished on the fly not as an afterthought. "ported goes deeper than sealed" Huhhhh? Where did you read that? Sealed designs go deeper than ported versions and the bass is much smoother and controlled. The trade off is they require more power and they sacrifice some output but the bass response is of higher quality though. Don't even think of putting that Dayton in the class of the Velodyne Servo's not even close. I'll put one of my Velodyne's up against that Dayton anywhere, anytime but be prepared to get spanked. Some of you guys need to do some more research before spouting off. Right on the money Anyone who tries to compare a Dayton to the quality produced by Velodyne HGS/DD series is out of his mind. The Dayton is a good cheapie sub,the Velodyne HGS is a high end accurate sub. But some people could hardly hear the gains,as thier hearing is very poor. A sub to compare with the Velodyne HGS/DD is Paradigm's Servo 15.Not some garbage Dayton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted April 21, 2006 Author Share Posted April 21, 2006 "A sub to compare with the Velodyne HGS/DD is Paradigm's Servo 15.Not some garbage Dayton." "Garbage"? ...a might harsh, I'd say. Also, I would be careful about making disparaging comments about other's hearing ability. I'd say it's more a question of differing values and priorities. Granted though, Velodynes are generally fine subs, if a little pricey (imho). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 Calm down, Freezin is right about Kids and subs in their cars. That's not bass response, that's plain noise.Maybe I'm wrong but, the bass is suppose to be accompaning the other instruments not overpowering it. I prefer acoustic suspension, but the industry seems to favor ported, and that's fine.Isn't less really better in bass output, clean clear bass notes as opposed to big boomy noise? What do I know, I'm an old fart with bad ears, but I can still feel that bass down low, and "feel it"response is what the sub woofer makers want in today's market,The real question is,"How much bass response are you willing to pay for, What's your price range"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 I think your ears are still fine oldbuckster. Let me see...... I am still being persecuted for having the bass to high..... everything on my hk is neutral. Anyways two doors down some kid decideds to watch a movie and with his logitech decides to turn the knob all the way for bass..... typical...... And guess what, 10 minutes later I get a knock on my door in which I knew "I" was going to be blamed. I Shouted that if you think that is me your ears are F***** up. I did not just buy rf-83 to listen to bbbrrrrrrrrrrrrpppppppp.... Anyways I find most consumers and people poorly educated in sound and music. Maybe that is why bose sells so much? I mean I am impressed everyday with my new speakers from the bass to the transients to the highs to the mids everything. I am doubting on getting a sub. Also my roommate gave me a nice comment when he told me to put the speakers on "my side" of the room, one next to a corner and the other next to a wall. Before they were in the middle. He like why is the bass soo loud..... silly kid. But it is annoying me since the bass is coming form the left (the speaker in the corner) and basically the right is significantly different. Ok back to subwoofer topic. Acoustic suspension aka sealed are not popular due to a larger enclosure (usually double) comparatively to a bass reflex (ported) Passive radiators are not much in the market due to the signifcant cost of buying passive radiators that cost usually around 30-200 dollars each and require usually 2 for each subwoofer. Ports are around 1 dollar each so it is just economical and sometimes practical for tube subwoofers. But why are we fighting each other over specs, I mean really until you actually have both to compare it is hard to compare. Just because this X and that Y is better does not mean it sounds better. To be honest a poorly done subwoofer can sound worse then a well modeled ported sub. It is how much modeling and time the company puts into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWOOFER Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 "A sub to compare with the Velodyne HGS/DD is Paradigm's Servo 15.Not some garbage Dayton." "Garbage"? ...a might harsh, I'd say. Also, I would be careful about making disparaging comments about other's hearing ability. I'd say it's more a question of differing values and priorities. Granted though, Velodynes are generally fine subs, if a little pricey (imho). Well,let's see.Dayton subs are overrated and do not outperform much in the way of real cometition.They get left in the proverbial dust when compared A/B with any Velo or Paradigm servo sub on music. Pricey,a bit.Any upscale product is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 It is how much modeling and time the company puts into it. You do realize that the company builds the driver to fit a specific cabinet/tuning point right? In other words they don't build the enclosure around the driver. Though in the early design stages some modelling is going on, most of the real design revolves around prototypes and dealing with the non-linear behavior of the system (and trying to figure out how to predict it). And why are there more ported than sealed subs? Simply because it is essentially free extra output. Whether or not the manufacturer chooses to use this output for more SPL or more extension is entirely a matter of choice. When a ported system is correctly implemented it will have absolutely no difference in performance over the passband that it would otherwise share with a corresponding sealed enclosure using the same driver. And there are also a few more tricks that can be taken advantage of with ported systems...i.e. the fact that the active driver barely moves at the tuning frequency. Anyways, I would never purchase a subwoofer based on its topology as you can always find good perfoming units in every category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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