Sunfire Theater Grand IV w/ Sunfire 200 x 7 Amp FIXED with Klipsch KA 1000 amp and KW 120 Subs! YES!!

[IndyKlipschFan]

Attention below.. Look for User error!

(I re posted this, so People with Sunfire CAN have a incredible match with Klipsch Products!)

Look out below your answer is in calibrations, trims, and leveling out levels..

Ok, I overlooked an area... and tonight and feel like Homer Simpson.. DOUGH

As you know, I have the Sunfire Theater Grand IV, with the Sunfire Signature 7 x 200 WPC amp. I love it with the 7 split La Scalas... in my HT. (I would of bought a second Aragon system, the Stage One and the 20007 amp like upstairs, but with Klipsch/Aragon no longer making the Pre Amp (STAGE ONE), I was worried what if it failed?) The Aragon amp iteslf is wonderful.. So if the Aragon fails I can always buy a separate Pre Amp. It is a terrific system upstairs.. So far, the Stage One is wonderful.

OK, so back to the/my Sunfire saga with some background.

I met Bob Carver who at that time just named his equipment Carver and later designed the Sunfire line as a kid in my 20's at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nevada or it may have been the Summer CES show in Chicago, IL. I am not so sure today memory wise which show it was? Anyhow, a long time ago. Unlike some people I shook hands with, (Who had their names on products to meet) he seemed very very nice to me. Bob Carver was a rebel like Paul W Klipsch as well. He thought a lot of things in this industry was just wrong! In an age of BIG HUGE amps weighing hundreds of pounds sometimes.. His were these little cubes.. Ran very smooth and warm but not hot at all? Kinda cool!

It was also my 3rd time meeting Paul Klipsch back when Klipsch use to go every so often to show the world their Klipsch products as well. Paul had made, or had made a new needle cartridge for record players, which at that time was a very expensive one. Some kind of Japanese connection here I think. People still used vinyl LP's in an era CD's were just starting.. Most early cd's in the mid 80's sucked.. Some were lifted copies of LP's you could even hear the pops and scratches/ needle groves too. It is no wonder they sounded JUST AWEFUL!! No wonder it was so easy to say LP's were a LOT better at that time.

Go jump to 2005- 2006. When I built my theater I wanted the bottom end subs to be the Klipsch KA 1000 Amp and (2) Klipsch THX KS 120subs.. for my La Scala dream system. I am pretty loyal, OK, read "extremely loyal" to Klipsch Products, so it made sense to go this route. Especially, after hearing Trey Cannon and his system at last years Indy version of the Klipsch Pilgrimage. Trust me... La Scalas and this sub system..= NIRVANA.. 7 perfectly matched La Scalas 2 subs and this sub amp.. If you have something really good going in.. It should ROCK going out, right?

So I get the Sunfire, a Theater Grand IV and the Signature Series 200 x 7 amp. Klipsch is very very efficient.. the sound stage through the Sunfire processing is incredible.. Everything "is a rocking" except...the bottom end.. Booo hoooo (Note to self here.. Roger.. Remember Klipsch is VERY, VERY, efficient!!)

Sunfire has it's own standards that have a lower voltage out for their line outs to the amps as well as to the subs. You can internally cut the trims from your pre amp, as much as desired/possible. I tried this with regular settings on everything else zerowed and also boosted the subs but really no Klipsch subs doing anything at all. DARN!

HINT Klipsch La Scalas are efficient Roger.. You can see where this might be going right?

You know that definition of insanity...... where you do the same thing over n over n over again hoping for a different outcome? I tried the trims.. Nothing.. hmmmm I know I had set up the room calibration before.. Then tried to find a mix for the subs later... Then not enough juice to the subs, I even bought a mic pre amp (this one failed me.. too much noise.)

So tonight I used a separate mixer to boost the signal.. WOW, I had BASS.. CHEST pounding Bass too.. OK, so all I need to do is boost the signal. Finally.. but wait, while this is an option.. I am, in effect, doubling the bass signal 2 times.. which "could" inter fear with the true clean signal and amplify some bad noise too. If something in the chain was dirty all cranked up.. What to do? Plus this tweaking would just be insane.. Which pre amp do I need to boost, at what levels is this a good setting here at this setting etc., etc. At least I now know if the subs have enough "juice" they will rock wayyyy more than I need!

I was talking to a close friend.. and fellow BB member, he said rather than boost the bass only and trim stuff too... have you tried to lower the Calibrations on everything dramatically about as much as they could go..Calibrate it at those settings up, when needed. Look you have 200 WPC to work with Roger.. La Scalas are very efficient, cut everything wayyy down in the separate Calibration channels except boost the sub signal all the way up! OK, I think I tried this before.. I swore I already did this 10k times before off of my list.. Try it again, I am insane..

OMG, OMG, OMG, do I have bass!!!!! It was one of those Homer Simpson moments.. as I grinned..YES, FINALLY, I have enough signal to the sub amp boosted from the Pre Amp so everything is still very clean, just like it is supposed to be set up! Now I can adjust everything up carefully from the lowest Calibration settings on all 7 La Scalas. Now to radio shack everything else "up or down just a tad" calibration wise to blend it all in... and I should be set. I know I tried this before.. Maybe when I did, I turned the KA amp down, had it plugged in wrong, who knows I am sure USER error for sure! The key is, we all do this every once in a while. I made a mistake myself, and got really bent out of shape thinking my bass system sucks... when the solution was right in front of me to re wire re check re check again and think it through what options I have. We spend big money, we want big money results! Course having friends help remind you, have you tried this , tried that, helps too!

The Sunfire product the Theater Grand IV is an amazing pre amp. The sound stage is just HUGE in my 17 x 30 dedicated room. Add this sub system to it.. OK, Audio Nirvana is here. Life is not only good... it is incredible.. This is just what I needed...

And movies like U571, Star Wars, LOTR, War of the Worlds, Concerts, etc., will NEVER be the same again!!

Thanks for your suggestions in here too.. Homer out, DOUGH!!!

[IndyKlipschFan]

You know you can comment too.. It is OK..LOL.

I see people looking but no comments? Maybe you have your own stories of I thought I had it right, too? But too embarassed to share. hahahahaha

[theplummer]

You know the only person dumber than you is me (Ha Ha). I have a similar setup(Sunfire Theater Grand II and Sunfire Signature X5 amp. I have Chorus I mains, Academy center, Heresy II's rear, and I alternate between a SW10 II and a homeade sub with two 15" drivers in it, powered by one channel of a 100 watt ADCOM amp.

I have never really been satisfied with the bass in that system. Why do I run my Academy center, and Rear Heresy II's on +10 on the preamp, when obviously the output of either of the two subs cannot keep up with the efficiency of the rest of the setup. Now that I think about it, I have trimmed the gain back on the amp manually for the Chorus I's because they were just way to forward even for the Heresy II's.

Now you've gone and done it. I have something to keep me busy for the next week or so.

Thanks for your post.

[Kriton]

OK, wait - I am confused.

In the TGIV setup, you have calibrations for each individual speaker,

right? Including the subwoofer....the calibration screen is what kicks out the

pretty loud reference white noise sound and then you move between the

speakers to set the output to the same perceived listening levels using

a meter, etc, right?

Then you have the on the fly trims, which you can mess with from the

remote, right? THose are zeroed out when you start calibrating -

ok?

Then you have the separate Treble/Bass adjustment, when you can go in and tell the preamp to boost the bass or not, correct?

Now, if I am understanding you, you went in and lowered all of the

calibration points to negative and just turned up the volume to hear

the white noise generated sound in order to hear the fronts and

surrounds loud enough to calibrate them with the meter... and you

cranked the subwoofer calibration up a bunch, while leaving the others

low as you could...and you left the trims and the treble/bass alone too right?

Is this the gist? Hmmm...I am not running a Klipsch sub yet, and

the SVS I ahve seems to put out more than enough bass (bangs things off

the walls when a little too high), but I might like to try this to see

if it might extend the bass to the RF fronts, what do you think?

I love my TGIV too, have you uploaded and flashed the latest

firmware? I did it once and it was pretty easy...I wonder if

these things will be obsolete when the new codecs come out? My

400~7 voodoo amp never falls short of having enough power to suit me

too.

K

[IndyKlipschFan]

Well in a way yes... The calibrations I started all the way down.. a -10 and turned up the sub to + 10. Your right on the trims at zero. No Bass or Treble added.

Later last night when I had my Radio shack meter.. I dialed it in. So now, for instance the left front is - 7.5 ceter is -8 right front is - 8 etc. all Surrounds. So all 7 La Scalas are at some negative number except the subs are still +10. I can turn the subs down some from the main volume on the KA 1000 amp if I need to. (kinda crazy but I used a Ovation softwarre test DVD for test tones.. I know go back n forth but it works..) The Dolby/ DTS/ THX examples are amazing.

*****Note if you have SVS or something else... even sunfire subs.. they will probably be fine. This is the fix for anyone with Ultra 2 subs with the Sunfire gear! My RSW 15 sub was amazing so I knew I was on to something!

The problem is the hotter use of the Ultra 2 THX signal gear matched to a Ultra 2 THX sub amp would work fine... (The Aragon up stairs would have been great!)

**** In NON Ultra gear you will have to work around it. **** Especially with Sunfire.

But I am telling you this fix is/ was right in front of me stuff, and now it is AMAZING!!! All I need to do it turn the master volume up a little more than I used to..

[colterphoto1]

There you go man, Trey and I are proud of you! [{]Indy[}]

Why does the obvious answer sometimes take a while to arrive at?

You have learned well Grasshopper, soon you will be able to walk on the rice paper without breaking it.

M

[getech]

Speaking of which.....the Sunfire True Signature EQ sub to use with your Klipsch speakers is a match in heaven. Never, never will you be lacking for chest thumping bass and I mean major compression in any size room. 2700 watts of power!

Also, the new Sunfire Theater Grand V has just been released...another masterpiece from Sunfire, including new hdmi switching. You owe it to yourselves to audition these!!!!

[IndyKlipschFan]

Also, the new Sunfire Theater Grand V has just been released...another masterpiece from Sunfire, including new hdmi switching. You owe it to yourselves to audition these!!!!

============================

Yes, new HDMI switching.. everything else offered from what I can read and see (sound mode wise.. specs too) is exactly the same, (WHEW), although it is cosmetically different too. Sometimes, buying last years model pays off if nothing has really cahnged. I got a VERY good deal for both of these units. (Pre and Amp) Another customer ordered them but ran out of $$ so they sat a few months at my dealer... I consider myself lucky to be honest.

While I am sure the Sunfire sub line is amazing, I absolutley know the Klipsch THX Bottom end system, Amp/Subs with La Scalas, is as well. If it wasn't I would state it as so.. Truth is it really is just that da** good witht he old heritage. Chest pounding if needed but also critical very very musical too. Best of BOTH worlds.

[oldtimer]

There you go man, Trey and I are proud of you! [{]Indy[}]

Why does the obvious answer sometimes take a while to arrive at?

You have learned well Grasshopper, soon you will be able to walk on the rice paper without breaking it.

M

And after that, walk on the rice paper without leaving a trace. Then you will have learned....

[IndyKlipschFan]

There has been some talk about these new subs from Klipsch you never know. Corner loaded and I think with some kind of DSP or Room Correcting stuff as well. I will take a hard look I am sure...

AHhh me soglad melearn fromthe bestyou knowman. Methinks attimes myown headdoes cloudthings youknow?

Sometimes, the obvious answer seems too easy, that's why! I am sure I did this fix at one time. It was probably I had it plugged in wrong OR I forgot to turn up the volume on the KA 1000 amp. LOL It seems fitting it was a simple user error thing like that!

[IndyKlipschFan]

And after that, walk on the rice paper without leaving a trace. Then you will have learned....

LOL... Now learned what, I am not so sure...

[Chris Robinson]

Came across this thread. Seems to be where I am going with the Danley. I'm still short of db's though so maybe the boost from the SMS-1 will be enough to put it over the top.

Chris

[IndyKlipschFan]

Some good interconnects helped too. A LOT!

[IndyKlipschFan]

I wanted to add, I am not a big fan of the speaker wire debate... But I have found out otherwise in Interconnects. Good quality did in MY application make a huge difference.

[Kriton]

Hey Indy,

Since this thread has resurfaced - I had a question for your Sunfire guys on the distance setting in the TGIV -

I have worked very hard resetting all of my stuff, and with the help of a trusty assistant and tape measure, I had my front RF-7's equidistant from the listening sweet spot - now the weird thing -

I went into the distance settings on the TGIV, and I tried to set the distance of the fronts the same - and I couldn't do it - the TG would NOT let me set the speakers at the same distance - I could set 12'8", then it would jump to 13' even, but the other speaker would only go 12'10" to 13'4" - in other words it jumps at that distance by 3-4" inches and not the same in each channel? I have updated to the latest firmware (X.23) - could you guys try this and conform what I am getting?

I tried to e-mail getech, but received no response; I thought that might be easier than making a separate post here, but ...

Thanks,

K

[IndyKlipschFan]

Mine will do it in feet and inches...EXACTLY as it should... hmmmmmm I am not so sure why yours does this.. You have the TG IV right??

Worse scenario.. unplug it... re plug in and make sure it re boots?

Sunfire tech support has been pretty good in my questions too. Call them, just have your serial numbers and invoice where you got it.... Then they will be very receptive.

And I feel it does a great job of it too. (The distance to all speakers in your room.) I went as far as getting a stuffed animal where my head will be... not only to laser point it....exactly direction and height wise to my listening position, (Woodog would be proud,) but then measure, too, from that.

[Kriton]

Indy, thanks for the reply.

Yes, I have the TGIV - you have the latest firmware too?

I figured when it got to the certain distance it would jump by increments, I just don't understand why it wouldn't do it equally.

I have tried to call customer support, and I have never been able to get someone to call me back after having to leave a message...

I will try to unplug it...hadn't thought about that, but I am pretty sure that I have already done that after flashing the software...

Check your software, I am thinking it is a glitch in the new update...

Thanks,

K