Deang Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 "The question would seem to be is the 500hz cross point a wrong application? According to TAD it is not..." Yet - "...Granted with a recommended 800hz cross..." With the LaScala you might get away with 24dB/octave at 600Hz. If you have deep pockets you can go for it and play around. Horanzak the Terrible says "no" -- that would be good enough for me. "I just wonder why TAD would make such a fragile product then give specs like 500-22k response... My JBL 2470s have a "useable frequency range" down to 300Hz, but they are 10dB down at that point. At 400Hz, they are still 6dB down. You have to look at the plots very closely -- the thing we really care about is the -3dB point (below cut-off with the horn attached). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Metallized Glass is a term used to describe vacuum deposited thin film coatings for glass, including fiber optic components. Typical coatings may include front & back surface aluminum, gold & silver mirrors; dichroic filters; long & short wave pass filters; beamsplitters; low reflection coatings for 200-2000nm; heat absorbing films, & transparent conductive coatings... From here: http://www.thomasnet.com/profile/140853/evaporated-coatings-inc.html Beryllium, OTOH, is an alkaline earth metal, many compounds of which are toxic. Discovery of the element, in the mineral beryl, was by Nicolas Louis Vauquelin in 1789. Beryllium metal was first isolated by Wöhler and Bussy in 1828. One little known fact: the speed of sound in beryllium (12,500 m/s) is greater than in any other element... From here: http://chemlab.pc.maricopa.edu/PERIODIC/Be.html You might want to give credit to your sources from now on. Perhaps one should learn the difference between Beryllium and Metallized Glass before ascribing the qualities of one to the other? [] O.K., I should have said that a beryllium diaphragm behaves like metallized glass -- when the phase plug hits the diaphragm, it shatters. I'm still waiting for someone from Klipsch, or anyone with a modicum of credibility... You're offensive. Maron uses TAD drivers, and DJK worked as a Klipsch dealer for many years -- and I believe both knew PK personally. These guys are well respected in this community, and we can do without the veiled insults. At any rate, the issue with the old TAD diaphragms is well documented -- I think you need to recalibrate your bullshit detector. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/HUG/messages/66993.html http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3729&t=114 http://www.electrofusionproducts.com/web/bpdweb.nsf/AllDocsByID/32271787235B718288256DBD005A51E4/$File/Voice+Coil+September,+2001+reprint.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Bill, The horns may have an inate 300Hz lower limit, but I believe the crossover point for the driver is higher. Yes,I didnt think he was crossed at 300 but was hoping for something around 500.To bad he doesnt give a specfic point. The main thing I got out of his interview it that you must experiment. I'd start with the TAD 2001 and work from there. I agree,I figure that I will cross over around 500 to see how it sounds.Obviously I will be conservative on the volume control.If I need to adjust up so be it.I figure I can unload them fairly easy if I dont like the sound.They go for over $1000 ea new.The price I am getting them makes it easier in that regard. << Recently, at the urging of a customer, I tried out the TAD 2001 1-inch compression driver on my round horn. It has to be the best horn driver ever made. The response has great transparency and depth. Most of the 2-inch compression drivers have no depth of image at all. The TAD 2001 is now incorporated in my System 50. >> Coming from Dr.Egdar that is high praise.I am looking forward to this TAD sound.If its noticably better then I might just have to cross it higher,the Scala bass bins are good to 800hz.If its that good then I might just have to buy my dream active crossover,the Marchand XM-44 with 48db slopes. Thanks Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 "The question would seem to be is the 500hz cross point a wrong application? According to TAD it is not..." Yet - "...Granted with a recommended 800hz cross..." With the LaScala you might get away with 24dB/octave at 600Hz. If you have deep pockets you can go for it and play around. Horanzak the Terrible says "no" -- that would be good enough for me. "I just wonder why TAD would make such a fragile product then give specs like 500-22k response... My JBL 2470s have a "useable frequency range" down to 300Hz, but they are 10dB down at that point. At 400Hz, they are still 6dB down. You have to look at the plots very closely -- the thing we really care about is the -3dB point (below cut-off with the horn attached). Dean, I repect Marons thoughts on this.Hell he has actual expierience with them.I wonder if his impressions of the distorted response at 500hz refers to all levels or when you dial the volume up. I see your point on useable response and how fast it drops out.I have to do some more looking at the configureation and how to set it up. As for deep pockets these would blow the budget out of the water,so they arent that deep.Its worth experimenting to get some impressions.I might be so impressed that 650 or 700hz would be acceptable.Guess I am so used to that 400hz mark and the big ol horns covering most of the freq. range.Kind of like a single driver speaker with subs.Way good sound here. The TAD's better blow the 902's out of the water or I might have to go back to that fork and take the other path. Thanks, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Cain Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 You're offensive. Maron uses TAD drivers, and DJK worked as a Klipsch dealer for many years -- and I believe both knew PK personally. These guys are well respected in this community, and we can do without the veiled insults. At any rate, the issue with the old TAD diaphragms is well documented -- I think you need to recalibrate your bullshit detector. I find pointless arguments, with no substantiated facts, both offensive and insulting. But I try to keep a sense of humor about these things. After all, the world still goes 'round, no matter WHAT is posted here. Pedigree is valueless when an argument is spurious. Logic and truth are the currency of this "community." So far, you've used neither responding to me. If you want to provide some of that "well documented" info, please do. I would welcome it.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> When you (or anyone else) can document the supposed PWK "turned into dust" episode... or can show that ANY Beryllium diaphragm can be converted to dust through overdriving, I will acknowledge the fact. Until then, nothing personal, the Bullshit Detector is on..... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Friends dont let drunk friends drive.........Just friendly advice.....So if you want to abuse a TAD driver be my guest....Do the sniff test after busting the diaphram. Its your money, & your health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 "it could never be formed nto a diaphram" And it isn't. Be used in diaphragms is vapor deposited in a vacum onto a copper diaphragm. When enough thickness is built up the composite is removed and the copper is etched away with acid leaving a Be dome. This is an expensive time consuming process, it takes an entire day for a rotary vacum pump to evacuate the chamber to the point where they can use a tripple-stage silicone diffusion burner to bring it down further($300 a quart for the silicone oil). After they get it down below 0.5 Torr, they bombard the remaining molecules of gas with up to 10KV at currents up to 1A through a sacrificial electrode (getter). Then they vaporize the Be and deposit it on the copper form, similar to a plating process. The lower priced Be stuff coming out now is a very thing layer of Be vapor deposited on Ti foil, and then stamped into a dome shape. I think the Usher and Focal are made this way. AFAIK, the $1400 JBL drivers are made the other way (as were the TAD and Yamaha drivers). Dust was the term PWK used with me. I would imagine it would be more granular, like tempered glass when it breaks. We use Be at work, caution must be used in handling. No grinding or abrading, disposal by direct burial. The lead-out wires on most Altec and JBL compression drivers are a BeCu alloy, flexible with no real hazzards involved. The newer K77 diaphragms are made this way (but not the ones Klipsch is currently selling, according to BEC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Friends dont let drunk friends drive.........Just friendly advice.....So if you want to abuse a TAD driver be my guest....Do the sniff test after busting the diaphram. Its your money, & your health. Maron, Thank you for your thoughts on this. I am intrigued by this driver,stuff of legends and so forth,but since you actually use the TAD what is your opinon of the sound?Is it worth the investment and replacing the 902?You havent commented much on the sound other than its not very clean at 500hz. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 "I find pointless arguments, with no substantiated facts, both offensive and insulting." In the link to the Asylum thread, Paul Butterfield of TAD Audio Products said, "...As the story goes, in the late 1980s, TAD was getting returns and complaints of shattered Beryllium domes..." On page 41 of the .pdf doc (link), it says, "Since inhaled beryllium powder is poisonous, fabricating parts that must vibrate and may shatter can have potentially toxic implications. Facts have been provided. Seems to me you just don't want to accept them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Cain Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Dust was the term PWK used with me. I would imagine it would be more granular, like tempered glass when it breaks. We use Be at work, caution must be used in handling. No grinding or abrading, disposal by direct burial. The lead-out wires on most Altec and JBL compression drivers are a BeCu alloy, flexible with no real hazzards involved. The newer K77 diaphragms are made this way (but not the ones Klipsch is currently selling, according to BEC). Thanks for clarifying the PWK "dust" quote. I would heartily agree with those who feel that "dust" would be a concern. I know I don't want to breath that stuff. I would also hope that, like tempered glass, Be foil shatters into larger pieces; too large to be classified as "dust." Perhaps somebody will be able to say, one way or the other? Be diaphragms are too expensive for me, at this point. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 I posted a thread in the subwoofer forum that got LOCKED last week. I would prefer this one not to go there please. At this point I am more worried about blowing up $350 than dying in the act.I cant say what I would do if it did blow,probably leave the room.Not to flame anything here but common sense says run,primal instict...what ever. I am also currious as to the performonce of this driver,Maron? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Steamer.....The TAD sound... 2001 , 2002 The clarity of musical instruments is amazing. sweet and detailed with out stress. (with in its rated bandwidth). Some use it as a tweeter. Although I like the TAD ET 703 super tweeter. 5K to 45K....The TAD 4001, 4003 are no sloutch as Mid, Mid high. drivers. Very clean without being strident. Although at times I like the JBL 375 mid driver its not that extended on the high drops like a rock after 9K...The 375 just has its own coloration That i some times like. I guess due to the aluminium phram. But then again switching to the TAD 4001 it just keeps on going. Good clarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Steamer.....The TAD sound... 2001 , 2002 The clarity of musical instruments is amazing. sweet and detailed with out stress. (with in its rated bandwidth). Some use it as a tweeter. Although I like the TAD ET 703 super tweeter. 5K to 45K....The TAD 4001, 4003 are no sloutch as Mid, Mid high. drivers. Very clean without being strident. Although at times I like the JBL 375 mid driver its not that extended on the high drops like a rock after 9K...The 375 just has its own coloration That i some times like. I guess due to the aluminium phram. But then again switching to the TAD 4001 it just keeps on going. Good clarity. Thanks Maron, That is what I wanted to hear. I hope to hear what they can do for myself soon. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Steamer.....I use a electronic xover.....Ive been away from passive units for 20 years. If you go that rought , get a good one. The cheepos just muck up the sound . I dont like the Rane. I do like the Accuphase 25 . Old Mark Levinson. Krell had one. Or If you like some thing less expensive if you can find them the series 20 Pioneer D 23, D 24..Or Nikko C23, Marchand 44 is very good. It takes along time to put all this all together. Ive been at this probably longer the youve been alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Exploding Diaphrams ..... Sounds like something a girlfriend would say to a guy who she thought was going to leave her! Pure Freakin' B.S. Sounds like something I'd say back to her! LOL [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 Steamer.....I use a electronic xover.....Ive been away from passive units for 20 years. If you go that rought , get a good one. The cheepos just muck up the sound . I dont like the Rane. I do like the Accuphase 25 . Old Mark Levinson. Krell had one. Or If you like some thing less expensive if you can find them the series 20 Pioneer D 23, D 24..Or Nikko C23, Marchand 44 is very good. It takes along time to put all this all together. Ive been at this probably longer the youve been alive. Maron, I run an active system with a Rane.I got it cheap on ebay only to get the system up and running in active mode. I really like the Marchand's and saw a Pioneer D-23 on ebay today.I will upgrade eventually.Probably to a Marchand XM-44. I posted earlier about changing my Rane to 650hz from 400hz last night.It has just killed my sound.Everything was bass heavy,bloated and not as defined.I have adjusted the low levels and am still not impressed.I have lost so much of that magic the Wavelengths give me.I dont know how to describe it but the soundstage has changed more to flat.The air between instuments and vocals has dropped alot.The presence of vocals, instuments has gone down.The tube amps covering 400hz on up gave me a soundstage with presence and clarity and air,unbelievable.Now its just flat kind of like SS amps. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 The Pioneer D 23 is a realy realy excellent sounding xover. It does not get in the way of the sound of any amps tube or solid state. I dont know what to say......I dont know what the condition of the unit on EBAY is like. I have one of them too, Its a keeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieboy Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Greg, Heres manditory gear for listening with those drivers. Your basement is now a basement/bomb shelter!!! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 Greg, Heres manditory gear for listening with those drivers. Your basement is now a basement/bomb shelter!!! LOL! Thanks for your input,where can I get one..lol,Tad should send them out with the drivers, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieboy Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.