Are You useing a Power Conditioner?

[SET12]

never use a power conditioner on a Amplifier

please say more on this

kills dynamic's

I have to agree with you this has been my take on isolation transformers unless they are huge like 3-6 kw you may be looking at killed dynamics because of the high source impeadance of them a company like Iso Clean handles just such a product and yet they recommend with higer current demands that two of them be used in parallel each one is 3 kw, here is the distributors web site

http://www.aaudioimports.com/

There is a dealer for these in Chicago, Essential Audio has told me that their magic is easyly demonstrated and that without them it is like listening to cardboard cut outs! Maybe? I haven't heard them these things go 60lbs and 2700$ each.

[Guest " "]

SET12

3 - 6 KW, thats intresting.

I have a 3KW variable isolation air core transformer in my avs 2000.

I'm thinking about building a split phase 60-0-60 power supply and putting it in-line first before the other power gadgets.

AVS2000_sch.pdf

[SET12]

Isn't that an autoformer in your AVS that is a single winding? Are you thinking about an additional transformer line in and 60-0-60 out?

[TommyK]

Most conditioners promise the moon and do nothing. A true on-line UPS that runs power off the battery (not one that switches with an outtage) can clean up power issues. As does the Monster AVS 2000 someone mentioned above. (One cost twice what the other does, btw)

The problem as I see it is people can be sold just about anything. And people get convinced they have "dirty power" in their quest for audio nirvana.

For a number of reasons your brain will lie to you if you just plug in a new $1000 toy and listen for an audible change. For this reason, I'd want to be able to test and track my voltage fluctations over time before looking for a cure to a disease I don't have. 10% flux from 120 is considered normal.

Everybody has a right to make a buck. If it weren't for cable and power conditioners most small audio boutiques would be out of business as no one make enough selling amps to keep the doors open.

And yes they do make typhoid vaccine for 3$ a shot. But unless you know for certain you are travelling where typhoid is a risk, your shot is really nothing more than - dare I say it? - snake oil.

peace,

TommyK

[Guest " "]

Isn't that an autoformer in your AVS that is a single winding? Are you thinking about an additional transformer line in and 60-0-60 out? 

Good question, autoformer or true transformer.....I'll check into it and let you know.

The split phase power supply project will put 60 volts on one phase, 60 volts on the other, and float the ground.

[pauln]

Interesting comments from the GUERRILLA GUIDE guy... (he even explains there why to elevate your cables off of the floor - its to get away from the re-bar in the concrete slab...):

"6) You are choking me with the multi-plug strip. ! Dont use a surge strip. Why cant I use the power strip filter like the one on my computer? Because a surge strip prevents dynamic current delivery. It is designed to deliver a steady current and suppress any surges, which are your music dynamics. Most surge strips cannot tell the difference between a power surge and a loud, dynamic passage of music from your amp. It sees each event as the same thing-a surge of power passing through its circuitry. We want instantaneous dynamic current for those hungry amplifiers! If they cant get the power they need, fancy speaker and interconnect cables will not help, its like trying to drain a pool with a straw."

"7) Throw out the power conditioner too!

Power conditioners usually have the same issues as a power strip, namely current restriction. Instead of spending lots of money on a power conditioner, I suggest you have a dedicated stereo circuit installed. I know this sounds like overkill, but it usually gives you larger gains than a power filter. You already know I dont like power filters for most situations (for some systems, however, there is no other waylike my friends in California), but most of the good power filters cost more than having a qualified and experienced electrician install a dedicated audio circuit. This can be a major improvement and I recommend it highly!"

[Guest " "]

Line Noise

Line noise consists of small variations in the voltage level delivered to the computer. A certain amount of line noise is normal (no power generation circuits are perfect) and for the most part, all but the absolutely cheesiest power supplies will deal with them without difficulty. However, in some areas the power quality is worse than others. Also, if the PC is sharing a circuit or is physically located near devices that cause electromagnetic interference (motors, heavy machinery, radio transmitters, etc.) then line noise can be a serious concern. Noise that the power supply cannot handle can cause it to malfunction and pass the problem on to your motherboard or other internal devices.

Representations of three cycles of an "ideal" AC signal,

and three cycles of a fairly noisy AC signal.

Some devices in your own home or office can actually generate noise and push it back onto the AC line to affect other devices through the power system. Better power protection devices will isolate devices that plug into them to prevent this cross-pollution.

[Guest " "]

Surges

The power coming from your wall is rated by the electrical company to be within a certain voltage range. The nominal voltage for North American circuits is 110 volts. Due to disturbances, distant lightning strikes, and problems within the electrical grid, on occasion a voltage spike may come down the line. This is a temporary increase of voltage that can last just a few thousandths of a second, but in this time the voltage can increase from 110 to 1,000 volts or even higher.

Most computer power supplies are subjected to many of these surges each year, and like with line noise, most of the better ones can tolerate them to some extent, though it isn't really great for their internal components, as I am sure you can imagine. In some cases, high voltage surges can disrupt or even damage your computer equipment. In addition, being subjected to many surges over a period of time will slowly degrade many power supply units and cause them to fail prematurely.

[Guest " "]

Lightning Strikes

I don't need to say too much about these! Lightning can deliver a charge of millions of volts, and if your home is hit directly, significant damage will likely be the result. Good line protection equipment can often help reduce the chances of catastrophe should lightning strike, usually by being the "sacrificial lamb" and going up in smoke (which is OK--it's better than your PC doing that). But due to the sheer power involved in a direct hit, there is a good chance that even with protection your equipment may be damaged.

A direct hit with lightning is fairly rare, but there is another lightning-created risk that more commonly affects PCs. Due to the enormous amount of electricity involved in a storm, a strike near your PC--near meaning within several miles--can induce currents in metal objects. Any wire that comes in from the outside and attaches to your PC can become a conduit for a pulse of destructive energy. This includes the power cord of course, but also the telephone line. It's not likely that you'll have your home hit in the next year, but in many areas of the world, it's almost certain that you'll have a strike within a mile or two.

[Guest " "]

Brownouts

A brownout, sometimes also called a sag, is a "dip" in the voltage level of the electrical line. When a brownout occurs, the voltage drops from its normal level to a lower voltage and then returns; in some ways, it's like the opposite of a surge. Most power supplies can handle a reduction in the nominal voltage that it is expecting. The capability of the power supply in this regard is dependent upon its allowable input voltage range. For example, a power supply might be rated for 115 VAC, but may accept anything from 95 V to 135 V. Any reduction of voltage below 95 V for more than a fraction of a second is likely to cause the power supply to either shut down or malfunction.

Brownouts are extremely common, and can lead to mysterious problems you would never blame on the power system. You can sometimes detect a brownout by noticing the lights flickering or dimming; they occur often during heavy load periods such as in the late afternoon on a hot summer day, and also during storms, as the local grid is affected by mechanical failures in adjacent areas. As the world's electric grids become more and more taxed due to increased demand, the incidence of brownouts is increasing.

Brownouts can wreak havoc with computer systems. In many ways, they are worse than a blackout. In a blackout, the power just goes off, but with a brownout the device continues to get power but at a reduced level, and some devices will malfunction rather than failing totally.

[Guest " "]

Blackouts

A blackout, of course, is when the power totally fails. The damage that a blackout causes to your system depends a great deal on its timing. If the system is idle when the power goes out, probably nothing will be wrong with the system when the power comes back on. However, if the power goes while you are fixing problems on your hard disk, just as the drive was updating your file allocation tables, you're more likely to have trouble!

In addition, the power often doesn't go out cleanly, but with spikes and jitters both when it ends and when it comes back on. Most systems survive the power going off and back on without too much difficulty, but the potential for large amounts of damage is there; and of course, you lose any unsaved work that was in memory when the power went out.

[marems]

I agree with pauln, a dedicated curcuit does help big time! I noticed that the back ground noise was alot quieter . I'm using a monster power strip... So this is a bad thing for dynamics????

[SET12]

Blackouts

A blackout, of course, is when the power totally fails. The damage that a blackout causes to your system depends a great deal on its timing. If the system is idle when the power goes out, probably nothing will be wrong with the system when the power comes back on. However, if the power goes while you are fixing problems on your hard disk, just as the drive was updating your file allocation tables, you're more likely to have trouble!

In addition, the power often doesn't go out cleanly, but with spikes and jitters both when it ends and when it comes back on. Most systems survive the power going off and back on without too much difficulty, but the potential for large amounts of damage is there; and of course, you lose any unsaved work that was in memory when the power went out.

Speakerfritz,

Thanks for your contributions to this thread they are all very good points! And there are also other peoples notable points as well, Such as dedicated lines and the influnce of devices in power strips etc. all very interesting!

SET12

[steamer]

This is an interesting thread.Lots of good info.

I use a PS Audio P-500 powerplant on my frontend components and low power tube amps.My high powered SS amps(used for bass in my active biamp rig)are plugged into a Chang Lightspeed isolation transformer which is plugged into a dedicated line just recently installed.

I think the PS unit is a big improvement.It has some nice features,one I really like is it maintains constant voltage and cycles to my components delivering the mids and highs.

As for the SS amps plugged into the dedicated line.I cant really tell a difference but have only had it rigged this way for about 2 weeks.

The PS unit does work,it vastly improves the sound.This is not psycoacoustic BS and here is the story.3 years ago I purchased a Mark Levinson #39 CDP used.After about a week in the system I was very dissapointed with the sound.It was ok but just not right,not what I expected.Every review I read on this unit was either they loved it because it digs deep and shows all the flaws of the recording or they hated it for the very same reason.Well one night I woke up at 3am.I could not sleep so I fired up the computer and stereo.As I am surfing the web I start to notice that the sound is different...like really good,very clear and detailed.I am thinking to myself WTF.is this the same CDP?.Then it dawned on me that its 3:30am.I have always heard the power is cleaner at night but never really noticed a big difference.Over the next week I investigated this situation.I was on vacation and had a week to play around.Sure enough listening to the rig at day was ok but nothing impressive.Then at night the system transformed.I found my self listening more at night(late)or early in the morning.My conclusion was that this ML #39 likes clean power,just a different machine at certain times of the day.

The PS unit is rated for a 500 watt draw,my current draw with the Wavelength tube monos,ML #39,Rane active x-over and BagEnd integrator is 93 watts.

Within a month I found a used PS Audio P-500 and have never looked back.The sound of the system is now very good no matter what time of the day.Call this psyco bs if you want but you will never convince me otherwise.

Greg

[LarryC]

I think the PS unit is a big improvement. It has some nice features,one I really like is it maintains constant voltage and cycles to my components delivering the mids and highs...I found a used PS Audio P-500 and have never looked back. The sound of the system is now very good no matter what time of the day. Call this psyco bs if you want but you will never convince me otherwise.

I definitely agree that a PS Audio power regenerator (that's what it does) will greatly improve the sound of some components. I wasn't going to suggest one because they are more expensive than line filters and use almost twice the power that they deliver. But, I found definite improvement in motor-driven components -- turntable, CD player, and cassette and reel-to-reel tape decks. I did not get that improvement from my preamp, am not sure about the tuner. I don't use any power dealie on my amps other than an aftermarket cord that sounded better to me.

This has been reported by others on the forum.

[Guest " "]

We have covered quite a bit of ground. Now, there's a flavor of a power line device that is more likely to improve high gain devices. Many line conditioners incorporate this approach in a few of their outlets and indicate them as pre-amp or phone plug outlets. Basiclly there is a transofrmer that splits the 120 into two phase of 60volts. This has the effect of canceling out line noise.

The approach is a balanced power supply.

Here are two links. One is a stand alone device, the other explains the balanced transformer.

http://www.transcendentsound.com/power_supply.htm

Extract below, more at http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/feature-article-isolation-transformer-8-2003.html

""With hi-fi equipment, electrical noise manifests itself as audible noise in the speakers. Obviously, this is undesirable. One way of reducing noise is by using an isolation transformer that has the same output voltage at the secondary as in the primary. The transformer acts as a band-pass filter, which will not only block DC voltages (many components operate less effectively in the presence of DC), but block high frequency noise (the transformer coils act as an RF choke). Secondly, if the transformer provides balanced AC out (+ 60 Volts on one leg and - 60 Volts on the other leg), any noise that is picked up by components' power cords and extension cords is cancelled through common mode rejection (CMR). This happens when the balanced legs are combined to produce 120 Volts. Because the noise is the same polarity on each leg, but the voltage is inverted on one with respect to the other, the noise gets cancelled out between the two AC voltages. Also, a benefit with balanced power is that you are then placing the

ground, which may be referenced one way or another by the signal circuits, in the "eye" of the hurricane, so to speak, of the power currents of the AC line, so that the ground itself is cleaner, providing a cleaner reference for the signal circuits.""

[jt1stcav]

Interesting thread indeed, but to my ears I cannot tell a difference sonically whenever my present system's connected to my Monster Power HTS 5000 or when it's not (and I have tried this several times since owning my 8 WPC SET amp, plugging it and everything else into it, and then disconnecting everything and plugging all my components straight into the wall outlets).

Therefor I won't argue on either side of the line conditioner/surge protector debate, whether they work as described or are nothing more than snake oil gimmicks!

I feel confident with my HTS 5000 in the system and that it's doing what it's supposed to do. Since there are lots of lightning strikes in my neck of the woods, along with sags/spikes et al, I haven't experienced any problems yet (to my knowledge).

I am intrigued by the products built by ZeroSurge, Inc. in NJ, that their surge suppressors do not use MOVs:

http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/standaloneres.html

I don't recall if anyone here has mentioned ZeroSurge and their Series Mode Technology and what they think of this design...

[Guest " "]

jt1stcav

You may be right about not hearing or seeing a difference. your power might be good, and thus, your comparing good power to good power after it has been cleaned up.

My power s...ks so not only can I hear a difference, but see it as well on my HD screen.

The incoming power to my home varies 5 to 19 volts below prime. With out my AVS 2000 boosting up the power back to 120, folks on my HD screen look like they are melting.

[Jay481985]

maybe most people hearing something different at night is the fact that at 3:30 am its really quiet. Most acoustically correct rooms try to soundproof the room not so the sound leaks out but for the sound from the environment not to leak in. I remember a company showcased a perfect acoustic room that included a concrete floor that was floated on oil to reduce vibrations from coming from the floor.... A bit over the top but at night I suspect no road noise, airplanes, people moving, appliances etc makes the music much more cleaner. Also I bet there is some truth to the electricity being somewhat cleaner but........ I remember someone saying that most expensive pre/pro amps have their own circuitry to provide clean power to the unit.

[SET12]

maybe most people hearing something different at night is the fact that at 3:30 am its really quiet. Most acoustically correct rooms try to soundproof the room not so the sound leaks out but for the sound from the environment not to leak in. I remember a company showcased a perfect acoustic room that included a concrete floor that was floated on oil to reduce vibrations from coming from the floor.... A bit over the top but at night I suspect no road noise, airplanes, people moving, appliances etc makes the music much more cleaner. Also I bet there is some truth to the electricity being somewhat cleaner but........ I remember someone saying that most expensive pre/pro amps have their own circuitry to provide clean power to the unit.

I agree with this for the most part for people that live in very active areas. I live in Appleton, Wisconsin some 25 miles south of Greenbay a small city of some 100,000 people we have a lot of mills I live in a fairly low noise residential area so I really don't have the issue of noise.

My concern is not with Voltage Fluctuation at all either. Even though it does fluctuate here + or - 6 volts according to my Furmans bar graph LED line monitor at the most. Nor is it with line noise even though my conditioner has lower my precieved noise floor of my system.

What I am very concerned about is the Lines Power Factor especially during day, It is usually better at night! When it has fewer appliances running in your nieghbors homes along with their Air Conditioning running less and the list goes on and on! As you share the Pole Transformer with your nieghbors up to ten of them! if the line is Resistive which is best then the power factor of the line will be an ideal mathamatical value of1

If the line is Inductive the mathamatical value will be less than 1 like a .5 which is bad what this means is that the current available on the line will be lagging the voltage meaning that the lines current is not in phase with its voltage a bad thing when it comes to an amplifiers dynamics. This is basic AC therory folks.

There are a few ways of tackling this issue one of which is AC regeneration, Or like the PS Audio Power Plants an expensive route for some of us as well as using DC power and their associated inverters. Nagra Audio has introduced new solid state amplifiers with Power Factor Correction Circuitry to correct for this issue.

The Furman Power Factor Corrector tackles the issue by lowering the AC line impedance and storeing energy being able to source some 45 amps if need be. I am aware of just a couple of Manufactures that have related to this and their designers think that it is an even bigger issue than noise!. Furmans Referance Product that sells for some 2500$ is able to source some 90 amps so this product seems like a bargin and I can afford another if I like!

The issue of Power Factor of a line is so important in Europe and Japan that they have mandated all computer supplies have some form of power factor correction built into them and this mandate may happen soon in the U.S. as well due to the fact that true power and apperant power are not the same and an Inductive line cost more large mills that don't make an attempt to keep some balance are penalized in their rates

Below is what some may call a flowery discription of the Furmans Technology.

Furman Sound introduces the all new Power Factor Pro, redefining power conditioning for the guitarist, bassist, or keyboard player.

Todays AC power is contaminated. Whether you play in a stadium, bar, or rehearsal space, they all have one thing in common: the AC power is supplied from your local utility. The power factor supplied from your buildings AC outlet is typically poor, thanks to increasingly overtaxed power lines and raised line impedance.

In fact, the quality of AC power has been so poor for so long, most musicians have no idea how great their amplifiers could really sound. When the AC power factor is poor, amplifiers sound muddy because their power supplies cant deliver when pushed. The scream and cry from a guitar loses bite and harmonics, basses lose their punch and weight, keyboards sound nasal, losing clarity, attack, and extension. Not so with Furmans Power Factor Pro.

Clear Tone Technology

The Power Factor Pros Clear Tone Technology actually lowers the AC line impedance supplied by your wall outlet, while storing energy for peak current demands. In fact, there are over 45 Amps of instantaneous current reserve in the Power Factor Pro. Coupled with Linear Filtering Technology (LiFT), this dramatically lowers AC line noise to unprecedented levels in the critical audio frequency band. What does this mean? Just plug in your current starved amplifier, crank up the volume, and listen to the dynamics, harmonics, and clarity youve been missing!

This product is working very well for me! And everything that it is doing has been verified several times and each time the improvements were very audiable.

Again Thanks everyone for their input!

SET12

P.S. Other conditioners can be used with this Furman Product such as line Voltage Regulators and Isolation Transformer based products they are Fed from the Furman.