seti Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I was going through and reading past threads on the Jubilee and there is a question that was left hanging. Does anyone know why the consumer Jubilee that PWK designed had a drone driver? That would have put 3 12 inch drivers o the motorboard. I'm sure he didn't do it just for the hell of it. Also are there any interviews or reports of PWKs comments on the Jubilee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I am going to throw somwthing out there from left field. I noticed past discussions about the passive radiator, focused on it contributing to SPL output in much the same way passive radiators are used on traditional cabinets. During these discussions, it became apparent that issues arise in a horn environment due to the resulting "cancellation effect" co-locating the radiator and the drivers. So one of the thoughts I had was that a passive radiator mounted on a baffle could be used to separate the upper and lower drivers by mounting the radiator inside the cabinet with no exit path at all. Used in this manner, the only "cancellation effect" that would exist is the cancellation of differences between the two drivers which one would assume could only be unwanted harmonics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 When did the Jubilee ever have a passive radiator? I thought that was just a misconception? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Not sure if you are saying the myth has been disolved or if you are asking for the source of the "notion". Here is an axtract of a recent Jubilee thread. If the current view is that no radiator exist, thats fine. ""Re: Uh, Speaking of Jubilee !? Reply Quote Favorites Contact Back in May, I went to Hope and saw the prototypes of the Jubilee, and heard one of the proposed home versions, but with the fibrglass tweeter/midrange horn atop it. The bass bin for the home version has two 12" active radiators, and one 12" passive radiator(drone) firing it. It has a bifurcated pathway that fires to the left and right, instead of up and down as on the k-horn. It appears that it will be a simpler build than the k-horn, and it also goes around 5 dB lower than the k-horn bass bin and quite a bit higher than the k-horn bass bin, thus allowing for a higher crossover and a two-way system.""" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Yes, the reflex-port and/or passive radiator used in a horn throat is associated with a patent which is not specific to the Jubilee... If I remember correctly, it's to KlipschCO and its inventor was our friend Roy Delgado. Here is a horn with passive reflex ports in the throat from 1986, before the Jubilee. It CAN be done, who know how good it is... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 thanks for the patent number. i have asked corporate to get me a copy of the patent. it is a hidden hobby of mine to explore horn loading vents and drivers manifolded into a common horn. in my initial experiments, the data was very compelling and that is why i applied for the patent on my own. it was later on that klipsch wanted to purchase the patent from me. in the middle of that i showed Paul the data i was gathering and after seeing the data, wondered if it could be applied to the jub. i answered, as Paul had taught me; let's find out. the data was positive and we built up some prototypes but as deadlines approached for the impending CES show that we were going to debut his speakers, i convinced Paul that it was not ready and that we should proceed without the horn loaded vent. that is why some have heard of the hornloaded vent jub. we did build up some protos. roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 in my initial experiments, the data was very compelling and that is why i applied for the patent on my own. I've been kinda curious to the direct advantage of using a passive radiator in a horn loaded situation? Unlike a typical ported speaker... won't the lower Fc be dictated by the horn itself? If bass extension isn't the objective, was it a question of efficiency? ROb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 at heart, i am really simple minded (just ask my wife). one day i was bass fishing and I wondered: you have a sealed enclosure, you get a certain bass response. put a horn in front of that and you should get that curve raised up in spl. you have a vented system with more output within a certain cutoff. take that system and put a horn in front of it. i know that that is simplistic and it turns out that there is balancing of parameters going on but it does work. as in nature, the two systems blend the resultant parameters and i got an unexpected result; what i thought i should get. roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Roy, as you said that you could not meet CES deadlines, was there any further studies or such done after CES? This is very intriguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 D-MAN I am trying to follow the daigram for the "refelx-port/passive radiator". I am looking at a radiator with a rear horn loaded exit path that is in a cabinet chamber co-located with a dirver that is loaded with a traditional horn loaded side exit path as in the side exit path's used in the jubilee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 you have a vented system with more output within a certain cutoff. take that system and put a horn in front of it. i know that that is simplistic and it turns out that there is balancing of parameters going on but it does work. So what you are saying is that even though the horn itself limits the gains in bass extension... there are actually some gains.... other than efficiency. I remember reading a post from Andy (HDBRbuilder) mentioning him peaking down the vented Jub access trap and seeing the two drivers and passive radiator. Seems to me that the three would not fit in a standard height Jub cab... unless you use a smaller PR (<12") with much greater excursion... as well as modifying the first expansion. Why not use a tuned port? not enough back space? ROb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Roy, I can send the Hook patent to you - send me an email, if you want me to. Speakerfritz, in the diagram above, the vertical front-loaded throat opening (slot) is directly in front of the driver as expected. The portion above and below the driver opening houses the reflex ports (also into the same horn channel) which are also vertically oriented, and not real clearly drawn. The horizontal "braces" seen in the throat area keep the front (loaded) and back (loaded) openings from cancelling each other out due to the time it takes for the respective waveform to travel before they "mix" into the same horn channels (being bifurcated at the throat). Same could be applied to any bifurcated-at-the-throat design. This idea could also be applied to the dual 15" driver versions being bandied about lately. With the proper length of separation being applied, a single 15" could use the "other" opening/throat without the other driver as a reflex port. If I ever build a dual-driver cabinet, I'd definitely be into experimenting with that! Rob, my 2 cents on the drone cone vs. a straight port is that the cone has a wider bandwidth capability than a simple port (per Olson) which is far more frequency specific (or perhaps better called "frequency restricted"), that is the passive radiator has a less pronounced sharp peak (or a broader curve), comparitively speaking. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Roy, as you said that you could not meet CES deadlines, was there any further studies or such done after CES? This is very intriguing. yep we kept playing with it, tried different drone types, different parameter woofers including 4" voice 12" woofers. we had several different priority parameter configurations dialed in but when paul got sick and eventually passed away, all interest died as well. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 you have a vented system with more output within a certain cutoff. take that system and put a horn in front of it. i know that that is simplistic and it turns out that there is balancing of parameters going on but it does work. So what you are saying is that even though the horn itself limits the gains in bass extension... there are actually some gains.... other than efficiency. I remember reading a post from Andy (HDBRbuilder) mentioning him peaking down the vented Jub access trap and seeing the two drivers and passive radiator. Seems to me that the three would not fit in a standard height Jub cab... unless you use a smaller PR (<12") with much greater excursion... as well as modifying the first expansion. Why not use a tuned port? not enough back space? ROb yep you can fit 3 12"er's in there and still have plenty of room for some screws to hold them down with. you can use ports but ports by their very nature are lossy and drones offer one more degree of freedom than ports; mass and compliance. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Roy, I can send the Hook patent to you - send me an email, if you want me to. Speakerfritz, in the diagram above, the vertical front-loaded throat opening (slot) is directly in front of the driver as expected. The portion above and below the driver opening houses the reflex ports (also into the same horn channel) which are also vertically oriented, and not real clearly drawn. The horizontal "braces" seen in the throat area keep the front (loaded) and back (loaded) openings from cancelling each other out due to the time it takes for the respective waveform to travel before they "mix" into the same horn channels (being bifurcated at the throat). Same could be applied to any bifurcated-at-the-throat design. This idea could also be applied to the dual 15" driver versions being bandied about lately. With the proper length of separation being applied, a single 15" could use the "other" opening/throat without the other driver as a reflex port. If I ever build a dual-driver cabinet, I'd definitely be into experimenting with that! Rob, my 2 cents on the drone cone vs. a straight port is that the cone has a wider bandwidth capability than a simple port (per Olson) which is far more frequency specific (or perhaps better called "frequency restricted"), that is the passive radiator has a less pronounced sharp peak (or a broader curve), comparitively speaking. Dana i got it from my boss this morning. thanks anyway. interesting patent. i would like to see what a curve would look like. that is one thing i regretted not doing in my patent; inserting a freq response of the number one embodiment. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Sad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Roy, as you said that you could not meet CES deadlines, was there any further studies or such done after CES? This is very intriguing. yep we kept playing with it, tried different drone types, different parameter woofers including 4" voice 12" woofers. we had several different priority parameter configurations dialed in but when paul got sick and eventually passed away, all interest died as well. roy Why not rekindle it once again? Obviously it got the attention of PWK and if its good enough for him its good enough for me!!! [] so goes the Klipsch ad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Because ultimately any project needs to earn the company money...which means working on a new product that would benefit from such a design. The only horn loaded bass bins at Klipsch are half of the cinema line and then the lascala and khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 Because ultimately any project needs to earn the company money...which means working on a new product that would benefit from such a design. The only horn loaded bass bins at Klipsch are half of the cinema line and then the lascala and khorn. Wouldn't this come in under R&D or at least improving/exploring a current product? I would hope engineers have freedom to explore their own ideas and interests as long as it is work related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 Roy, as you said that you could not meet CES deadlines, was there any further studies or such done after CES? This is very intriguing. yep we kept playing with it, tried different drone types, different parameter woofers including 4" voice 12" woofers. we had several different priority parameter configurations dialed in but when paul got sick and eventually passed away, all interest died as well. roy When Paul passed away was this also when hopes of the Jubilee being a consumer release faded? Thanks for sharing information and your thoughts regarding the Jubilee with us again. I have been a fan of fully horn loaded speakers for a very long time. I couldn't tell you exactly why perhaps it is because I grew up around khorns and la scalas but there is just something about the sound I love. Does anyone know of a website that has a history of folded horn speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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