what reciever to buy?

[bismarck]

I want to get a new reciever to replace my current yamaha htr-5840. The reason i want to do this is because i think my speakers should sound better. I have a synergy III set-up, i know, it's not reference series but i work and BB and don't get discounts on those. The reason i think they don't sound as good as they should is because i have heard how big of a difference an auto cal. mic can make. I don't want to spend alot of money and i don't see any reason to go with an expensive reciever because i don't need the HDMI in/out, multizone, component/HDMI upconvert etc... I also want to stick with the ones BB sells because, well, i get a discount. I really like my current yamaha but it just doesn't have the options I want to cal. my system. Unfortunately the yamaha recievers w/ auto cal. start at 500 i believe. I was thinking of getting the pioneer vsx-816k. It has all the inputs/outputs i need, power i need and their mcacc auto cal. mic.

I was told that the pioneer mcacc doesn't do as good of job as the ypoa, if this i true i would lvoe to know. Also, since the pioneer is rated at .01 distortion it won't sound as good as the yamaha because the yamaha is rated at .07. Any advice on this would be great too.

Basically, i don't want to spend alot, the only reason i want to change recievers is because of the auto cal. feature. If there is a way i can do this w/o getting a new reciever i would love to know. Currently i figure i should just get the pioneer, but i am on this forum because all of you know way more than i do so any advice on this situation on what reciever to buy or if i shouldn't buy one would be very appreciated.

[oldbuckster]

Wouldn't a Sound Pressure meter do what you want? I really don't know, and have had no experience with Auto. Cal. at all, and have never used a meter, I just go by what sounds good to me, there will be others who know much more than I do about it, and they will be jumping in soon, Good Luck................if you are buying a new receiver just for the auto set-up, I think the meter will do what you want alot less expensively....................

[Arky]

Wouldn't a Sound Pressure meter do what you want? I really don't know, and have had no experience with Auto. Cal. at all, and have never used a meter, I just go by what sounds good to me, there will be others who know much more than I do about it, and they will be jumping in soon, Good Luck................if you are buying a new receiver just for the auto set-up, I think the meter will do what you want alot less expensively....................

I agree if I understood the original post correctly. Both my h/k 7200 avr & Outlaw 990 pre/pro

have the auto cal feature which I don't use. The spl meter method is more accurate IMO.

[Jay481985]

Also, since the pioneer is rated at .01 distortion it won't sound as good as the yamaha because the yamaha is rated at .07. Any advice on this would be great too.

I think you mean 0.1 and that is negliable amounts of difference in distortion.

[Zen Traveler]

... I really like my current yamaha but it just doesn't have the options I want to cal. my system...

Rat shack meter will help you balance the SPL at your seated position. It won't do any other EQ adjustments. If you like the way your Yammi sounds then as the others have said, that is what you need. IMO, if you want to help the EQ of your system and have access to Magnolia stuff--See if they have a discontinued Denon AVR-3805 on hand to hook up to your speakers and see what you think. [] Good Luck.

[Steve_L]

I've got the Synergy F3s and associated center and surrounds and I matched those to a Pioneer 1014. That got toasted in a lightning strike, so it got replaced by BB with a 1015. Pretty much the same unit.

I am completely happy with it, and if BB still sells this unit then do consider it. It's essentially a Elite 52 dumbed down to not support multi-room or an RS-232 connection for the high end MCACC. However, I will say the MCACC works flawlessly. I have played with tweaking the standard MCACC settings, only to fall back to default that the system picked for me.

Power is excellent, I can break windows with the F3s and it supports all of the cool audio/video protocols, except the HDMI.

Really a great unit and I have been extremely pleased with this excellent "best buy" piece of gear. Big bang for the buck and especially paired with the Synergy F3s.

YMMV

Ride safe and rock on!

[Mongster1981]

i have had 3 pioneer elite recievers all with the set up mic it does make a huge dif but and the only but the three recievers i have had are all less than 1 year old thay have all broke down on me i am curlenty with out one as we speek it broke this morning. so i have come to the conclusion that PIONEER SUCKS do not buy a pioneer reciever. they are the best for the money as far as stuff and things but the quality sucks. if you do get one spring for the warinty

[bismarck]

I was just about to post a new comment when firefox froze, so i will try this again.

I bought an spl meter from radio shack but doesn't that only do speaker level? I am concerned with the equalizer. One reason is that the test tone on the center channel is very harsh in comparison to the rest of them. The yammie also only has an equalizer for the center channel. I am assuming that the pioneer will set the distance, level, and equalizer on each speaker. If there is a way i can do that w/o a new reciever that would be great but since the yammie only has a center EQ than i think i would have to buy a reciever with an EQ for each speaker. Which, again, i am assuming that the pioneer has.

IF all of this is true than the only thing i need to be concerned about is which reciever. I wanted to get one for 300 because i just don't see me benefiting from one more expensive. With a $300 price tag i am left with the pioneer vsx-816-k/s. I could also go with the yamaha 5960 "$500" for their intro. reciever w/ ypoa but i don't think i would benefit from that upgrade, but that is why i am on this forum in the first place. IF this is my only option, would the pioneer do great or would everything sound better with a more expensive reciever?

[Steve_L]

i have had 3 pioneer elite recievers all with the set up mic it does make a huge dif but and the only but the three recievers i have had are all less than 1 year old thay have all broke down on me i am curlenty with out one as we speek it broke this morning. so i have come to the conclusion that PIONEER SUCKS do not buy a pioneer reciever. they are the best for the money as far as stuff and things but the quality sucks. if you do get one spring for the warinty

WOW! That's a bummer. Can you tell us what defects they had?

My original 1014 was toasted in a lightning storm last year. The unit was shut off, but at the time I had no surge protector on the power distribution unit it was plugged into, and the unit had no surge protector fuse on 110/60hz side of the power transformer. I simple input fuse might have saved my bacon. But instead I had to go through a 2 week down period waiting for BB to do a analysis of the unit and then decide to replace it, then they didn't have a unit in stock and needed to ship me one.

I would not buy the extended warranty, the unit failed in the first year and it was covered under the manufacturer warranty of Pioneer NOT the BB extended warranty. That's why they had to send it away. Also, they then told me that my extended warranty would still only be good for the time of the original purchase of the original unit, not a year from the pick-up date of the replacement unit. I didn't quite get that, as they were VERY clear that the unit was being fixed/replaced under manufacturers warranty, not the BB extended warranty. I would never buy another had a known that. It is essentially worthless unless you buy a multi-year one. I was led to believe that it was a "no questions asked replacement warranty." by the original salesman.

Since then I've had no problems. I have added a surge protector to protect the unit. One night I was playing Stevie Ray Live at Montreaux at full volume, and the receiver went into overheated mode since I had it in an exclosed cabinent with lot's of other hot equipement and little ventilation. It went into over heat mode and politely shut itself off until it was happy and cool again. I've since added a small box computer fan to the back of the cabinet to keep it cool, plus I keep the front glass of the cabinet open a tad when I've got her cranked.

For sure Pioneer is consumer electronics. Stay out here and around other forums and you'll hear failure stories about lots of other bands too.

I don't think I've heard any failure stories about Denon, so there's one you might consider and the HKs are definitely nice, but they have their share of failures too. If you're in the Elite range you obviously know what else you can buy in that range and your choices are quite broad.

Good luck, bummer about the failed Elites.

[DrWho]

If you had good room acoustics you wouldn't need any fancy

auto-calibration microphone. You should fix the problems at the source

of the problem (the room) and not worry about band-aid approaches

(fancy auto-eq) unless that's the only alternative. Acoustical

treatments rarely pass the WAF, but they certainly are the best thing

you can do for your playback. Even if it's just a couple of bass traps

in the corners.

As far as getting a new reciever - I'd argue that they all sound about

90% the same. You really should make that purchase based on the feature

set (get a reciever that does what you want it to do and no more). If

you're ever looking to upgrade the sound quality the first thing I

would look into are dedicated amplifiers (running off the pre-outs of

the reciever). So the first step would be to find a reciever with a

good preamp stage and dedicated multichannel pre-outs (not to be

confused with the multichannel pre-ins).

It's been my experience that Denon seems to have the best pre-amp

stages and I would heartily concur with the Denon AVR-3805

recommendation.

[Steve_L]

Excellent points from DrWho.

Room accoustics are improtant aspect of the sound.

You are looking at spending some bucks to solve suspected room accoustics issues.

90% of the electronics at this level sounds the same.

All good points. The MCACC of the Pio is excellent, but maybe not really enough of a feature to justify the spend, when at the end of it all, some room accoustic adjustments might make a big difference.

Do some critical analysis of the room layout, speaker placement, furniture, carpeting and sound absorbing materials. You might find some carpeting and wall treatments could make a major difference and even add some ambiance to the room.

SPL meter and audio tuning disk might be a big help too.

[Wrench722]

YAMAHA RX-Z9

[Zen Traveler]

I...IF all of this is true than the only thing i need to be concerned about is which reciever. I wanted to get one for 300 because i just don't see me benefiting from one more expensive. With a $300 price tag i am left with the pioneer vsx-816-k/s. I could also go with the yamaha 5960 "$500" for their intro. reciever w/ ypoa but i don't think i would benefit from that upgrade, but that is why i am on this forum in the first place. IF this is my only option, would the pioneer do great or would everything sound better with a more expensive reciever?

YAMAHA RX-Z9

If Wrench722 is offering to sell you his Yammi within the parameters you insinuated--I would go as high as $600 for that purchase. [H]

[bismarck]

Hmmm..... Let me say a couple of

things first, well actually, i suppose third counting by posts.

• I am a college student mooching off of mom living at home for

  know, basically "poor"

• I don't have the equipment, knowledge, budget or

  probably the dedication to do significant room adjustments

I have never done any room adjustments so i don't know what to

look for or measure or change in that case. Correct me if i am wrong

but just pulling the speakers out of the box and hooking them up and

setting the speaker level won't do it. Shouldn't i have an equalizer

for each channel so the speakers match. My test tones definitely do

not match. I was hoping an easy fix to this would be an auto cal. mic

instead of spending hours w/ an spl meter and test cd among other

things trying to tune it all by ear.

Let me get you

up to date on the room situation and give a little insight into my

life. It will be in a 14X12 room w/ a sheet rock ceiling and walls, a

small window, carpet, an open walk in closet and a recessed desk . My mom is getting married in a month and my HT is going to

be moved into my room, the 14X12 room. I have to live in this room

for most likely one more year before i go to a different college.

I have to sleep and do my HW in this room. I need it to be

functional, i want it to look good and sound good. I haven't decided

where to put all my stuff, well, any of it, but if anyone wants, i

could make the room in cad or photoshop and put it in this post so

you guys can knock yourselves out with suggested layouts.

First, i want to thank you if you actually read all of that. Now you

know my situation. I am looking for the ability to close my eyes and

feel like i am at the concert; maybe that will happen when i move the

speakers anyway because currently the right side of the system is

against a wall and the left is open for about 15 more feet, basically, it

is on the end of a rectangular room. I am completely open to speaker,

bed, etc.. layout suggestions, just ask me to draw up the room. I

would still like to get the pioneer 816 because of my current

equalizer situation but maybe i should wait on that.

[Zen Traveler]

If you are having equalizer problems with the center channel, Imo you need to do something. Myself and others have given you their advice. IF you have access to the Denon AVR-3805 you should be able to get it for around $600 (I was offered that price at a local Tweeter 2 months ago as a customer). If you are set on the Pioneer 816 then take it home and try it out. If it does what you want then you are set--If it doesn't, use that BBY return policy and try something else.

BTW, another option would be to buy used or B stock. See what is on your local Craigslist and what's available on e-bay, from dealers. There are probobly some Denon AVR 3805's there. The older Denon AVR 3803 is an excellent AVR and should be able to be found for $300 or so.

[DrWho]

Definetly don't limit yourself to purchasing from BB either...sure,

take your employee discount into account, but there are other avenues

of purchasing gear that may or may not result in a better sound.

As far as your current situation I totally understand where you're

coming from. I think I've had my current setup in 4 different rooms now

as I've been jumping around with this annoying college crap []

If I may, I'd like to comment on the concept of EQ. Let's say you have

a perfect room except that the left speaker has a 3dB dip in the

response at 80Hz due to some nonsymmetry on the left wall. Will the

system sound better with a 3dB boost at 80Hz? The short answer is not

always, but usually no. There are two problems here: timbre matching to

the mains and the time response of the system.

The speakers and amplifier you end up with will all have their own

characteristic sound - which ultimately can be defined as distortion.

But our ears are cool such that as our ears become accustomed to our

equipment they begin to compensate and practically ignore the

distortions - allowing us to hear the music. It's kinda like the

concept of looking through a dirty window. You can't see through it

very well, but you can certainly appreciate the view. It's usually

assisted by moving your head back and forth - the spots on the window

(distortion) stay put, but the image on the other side doesn't so

you're able to see it more clearly. So all that to say, when you start

implementing different volume levels and different EQ's on each speaker

you end up changing the timbre of each speaker such that it becomes

much more difficult to ignore the distortions. (overlapping dots on the

window if you will). What this means in our playback systems is that

our LR mains should have all identical settings and EQ - symmetrical

placement in the room and all that shnazz.

The time response of the system is a bit harder to visualize but the

direct sound and reflected sound of the speaker don't all arrive at the

listening position at the same time. Because they don't arrive at the

same time you end up hearing the direct sound and then the reflected

sound of information just a bit earlier at the listening position - and

these signals will be different and certainly not in phase with each

other so you end up seeing ripples in the frequency response. The

frustrating fact of the matter is that EQ doesn't work in the

time-domain (it's constant for all time) and thus it won't change the

effects due to time-arrival differences. I'm not explaining it very

well, but the conclusion is don't use EQ to try and fix the time

response of the system.

As far as your speaker layout, feel free to post diagrams of what you

think would be an acceptable layout. No need to go overkill though - a

simple sketch in MS Paint will be more than enough. If possible I would

try to put the speakers on the long wall and the bed in the rear of the

room behind the listening position. Your desk for HW and all that

should be centered between the speakers and then whatever else you have

should be tucked wherever its feasible - just try to avoid the sound

path of the speakers (including the off-axis response). The sweet spot

in the room would be 5 feet from the rear wall, so pretty much right up

next to your bed, but you'll get good sound at the desk for doing HW

too.

[Zen Traveler]

One reason is that the test tone on the center channel is very harsh in comparison to the rest of them...

I had a thought (Jeez I was off-line and everything--I am spending way too much time on this forum[]). It appears what's stated above is the major reason you are considering buying another AVR--Have you hooked one of your other speakers to the center channel to see if you would get the same results. [:^)] The situation may either lie with the speaker or it's placement and not with your AVR. Something to consider...

[DrWho]

Well there are a lot of recievers (especially less expensive ones) where the center channel amplifier is not full range. The lack of low frequency information would in turn cause the white/pink noise to sound "harsh".

[bismarck]

Definetly don't limit yourself to purchasing from BB either...sure,

"So all that to say, when you start

implementing different volume levels and different EQ's on each speaker

you end up changing the timbre of each speaker such that it becomes

much more difficult to ignore the distortions. (overlapping dots on the

window if you will). What this means in our playback systems is that

our LR mains should have all identical settings and EQ - symmetrical

placement in the room and all that shnazz."

" I'm not explaining it very

well, but the conclusion is don't use EQ to try and fix the time

response of the system."

So you are saying that if I get something with an auto cal. mic it could

actually make the system sound worse, is that right? I will wait on a receiver

for now since I am also moving it all into my room and want to see how that will

sound. I am still wondering is there is any easy way of adjusting my center

equalizer to match my mains? I am also wondering is there is anything I can do about

the time response? Let's understand that I am not a die-hard audiophile but I

want my stuff to sound good and I am willing to put a little effort into it,

but not many hours and lot's of money for a minimal gain. I will have some

possible set-ups loaded in a few minutes.

[oldbuckster]

Lots of words flying around, Do you really think $300 is going to buy a better receiver than you have now? Try running with the Center channel OFF, and see how you like it..........try free stuff first...........move your speakers around...........use the meter to get levels right.......Lotsa free stuff to try before spending your money.............