Do I Need a Crown?

[Zen Traveler]

I am EXTREMELY happy with my system but am considering adding a 2 channel amp for my RF-7's and using my Denon AVR 4802R THX ultra II as a Preamp-- some folks say that I am missing something because of the impendence drop at 2.8 Ohms. My Ht room is heavily furnished and is approx 300 sq ft/2400 cubic feet. The AVR's THX Ultra II certification is for a 3000 cubic ft room, and is guaranteed down to 3.2 Ohms. I can listen to rock DVD's at 85 to 90 db with peaks well over 100 db without any clipping and still have room to spare on the volume. Is there a chance that a 2 channel amp may not be beneficial? I feel my speakers work seamlessly together and I don't want to mess anything up. [H]

The only place locally that has amps in stock is Guitar Center. I did a search for "Crown" on this forum and all I seemed to find were argumentative threads. I saw that the consensus was that the Crown XTI 1000 and XTI 2000 were good Subwoofer amps but how about for my RF-7's with my Denon? Are these amps better for HT than the Crown XLS-602 and XLS 802? They did not have the K1 or K2 in stock but I don't think the fan on the others is going to be a problem.

I also found that some of you like the QSC amps. I saw the PLX line mentioned but what about the QSC RMX 2450?

Any help would be appreciated. []

[Catharsis147]

As far as driving full range speakers,I find that pro audio amps are a bit of overkill, kind of like using a mack truck as a commuter for everyday travel. You could, for all intensive purposes, but the qualities you would associate with commuting, such as comfort, speed, and manuverability, would be lacking.

As I used to be a DJ, I have some familiarity with the amps you mentioned. The QSC PLX series really rocks with its class H amp design, but the RMX series is also very very good. In my expereince, Crown meakes great amps in the K series and Mirco and Macrotech series, but the rest of their line leaves much to be desired. Just my opinion, but I would go with a home amp first, then something in the QSC series, then soemthing from Crown. Try Adcom for the home series front. They make superb amps. Good luck!

[Zen Traveler]

Thanks Catharsis147,

The QSC RMX 1450 at $429 for 280 wpc/8 Ohms seems like a good deal but not compared to the Crown XLS 602 for $325 with comparable wattage. If the consensus is that the QSC RMX is better--that still seems like a good price compared to what I can find in the Home Theater market, No? Is the QSC PLX series cheaper than the RMX series?

[Catharsis147]

PLX is def more expensive than the RMX Series. I can only speak from a pro audio perspective, but the RMX series is better than the XLS series in that regard. But, for your purposes, maybe sticking to the XLS series is a better idea.....I still think going in consumer audo is a better move, but I guess for the price, pro audio will work for ya. Happy Listening!!

[Zen Traveler]

What would be the main advantage going with consumer HT amps? Would the Pro amps that I am looking at be considerably different sounding than what's in my Denon? Will having to use XLS to RCA type adapters be detrimental to what I am trying to accomplish?

[mas]

The Crown K1 and K2 are EXCELLENT amps.

I would not recommend the Micro or Macrotech series for home use. Don't get me wrong, they are Great amps! But UL requires a 30 amp rating on them, as under certain fault conditions they WILL draw this without shutting down! Although in a well behaved environment they can be adapted for 15/20 amp service. Crown ceased offering the adapter kits because of the UL liability issue. They were designed for dedicated applications where limitations in the electrical service is not a concern (Dedicated rack PAs, SR, etc. use).

Stick with the K series and you will get all of the fidelity (maybe a little more) and not incur the insane electric bill and electrical service requirements.

If you go with QSC, stick with the PLX series.

Both companies' lesser amps are designed for less critical environments, including 'PA' use - and by that I litereally mean distributed PA use (think high school public address systems!) - not heavy duty SR (sound re-inforcement) applications. They do not exhibit the duty cycle characteristics necessary to handle heavy transients. I would avoid them, especially for sub-woofer use. I have experience trying to use them in 'in house' SR and audio applications, and they distort and saturate on heavy transients, and this will result in damage to your speakers! But if you are looking to power an intercom system, they are just what the doctor ordered for a reasonable price!

[Zen Traveler]

The Crown K1 and K2 are EXCELLENT amps.

...Stick with the K series and you will get all of the fidelity (maybe a little more) and not incur the insane electric bill and electrical service requirements.

If you go with QSC, stick with the PLX series.

...

Thanks mas. The Guitar Center can order those for me but don't carry them in stock--Not a substantial enough discount compared to what they have in stock. [] I will have to find a retailer with a better selection who would be willing to deal...Any ideas in the DFW area?

[Jay481985]

I remember soundbroker he sells stuff at soundbroker.com I think said something alongs the lines of the bryston the best [] and he would get a qsc plx2 over the crown xti. But the xti left not much left to desire. The XLS i believe was very grainy according to many people. I remember someone had the Xti and said that the fan rarely comes on. Also to note, crown blows from front to back while the qsc blows back to front.

[IndyKlipschFan]

For what it is worth.

I am very very happy with the Mackie amps.. Don't overlook them, just because they make them in China now.. Heck, almost everything is.. LOL. I use them for Karaoke with 2 pairs of Cornwalls to play through, with the Mackie 800i series amps. I use one stereo amp and one set of Cornwalls for stereo playback music, and the other amp for stereo Vocals only. I am very impressed, and no noise or hum at all. To most, it sounds like a studio in the HT room.

[mas]

The K series Crown has NO fan! The front panel is a cast integrated heat sink.

I would NOT recommend anything less than the K series in the Crown line for audio purposes (unless you go with a D 75, and you wouldn't want those for subwoofers.)

Check out EBay for the K1 & K2s. You should be able to get one in EXCELLENT condition for ~$750.

If you get the original receipt they also carry a 3 year no fault warranty. And I have never had one require service even in SR applications.

Also, I haven't had hands on with the Mackie amps, but if they are up to the same standards as their mixers, they should be fine units as well.

(FWIW: I have MINT, neverout of the plastic or box - only the box cover has been opened, Crown Macrotech 24x6 with PIP card I would consider letting go for $1600 I dare say for bi-amp purposes, you can't do better. [] )

[Jay481985]

yes the crown k1 and k2 need no fan but it might be overkill providing too much wattage that will hurt your system if you are not careful

[mas]

They have adjustable output levels and you control the gain from the pre-amp!

Just like the QSC PLX line!

Maybe the best way to approach this is to ask how much you are willing to spend. Then it is easy to pare down what is available in the price range... I am assuming that you have a targeted budget...

[Zen Traveler]

Maybe the best way to approach this is to ask how much you are willing to spend. Then it is easy to pare down what is available in the price range... I am assuming that you have a targeted budget...

I don't necessarily have a targeted budget. I also never sit in my Home Theater and think it could sound better either. [H] I have read that the RF-7's have the impendence drop at 2.8 Ohms and I was curious if the 2 channel amps in the $500 range at Guitar Center would rectify the situation, if in fact I even have a situation.

I am not adverse to spending more money if it is going to make a difference in the sound quality of my system. I have toyed with getting a 2 channel amp and have considered Dean's crossovers only because so many Forum members tout these things--not because of any perceived imperfection in my Home Theater. [] BTW, I only listen to Multichannel material.

[dtel]

Do you want to be the king ?

Sorry about that , Fini has not been around enough lately and i miss his post. He always makes me laugh.

[mas]

This all may be a moot debate!

Yes, the Crown and QSC pro amps are stable down to the 1-2 ohm range.

But if you are not experiencing a problem with your existing setup and you are satisfied with the results, I wouldn't change.

If on the other hand you were experiencing problems...well, that would be another story.

But as I said, if you are happy with things as they are presently, sit back and enjoy! I would not expect changing amplifiers to make a dramatic difference. Certainly not one worth spending say $5-700 on based simply upon a 'paper' spec!

Quit making problems![][][]

[gigbyt]

I picked up a crown k2 recently on e-pay for 670.00 bux /great condition.

i hooked it up to my heresys and OH MY GOD! they sounded so much better than being driven by my sony db830 receiver. now im looking at getting amps for the speakers because the k2 will be for subwoofer duty.

I agree the Crown K1/K2 amps are excellent.

[Zen Traveler]

If you don't mind let me come at this from a different direction:

1) My Denon AVR-4802R is certified by THX to be 125 watts per channel/8 Ohms and able to handle down to 3.2 Ohm dips.

2) My RF-7's have a impendence drop at 2.8.

3) My AVR comfortably plays demanding Rock DVD'/DVD-A 's at 85 to 90 db with peaks into 100+

Given #3, what would I gain by getting a separate amp that spec-wise is able to handle the 2.8 ohm dips and am I missing anything because I don't have an amp that spec-wise does? In other words what am I missing with that gap?

I also understand the concept of Headroom but feel that my AVR is capable of a sufficient amount given the THX specs are for a 3000 cubic foot room and mine is closer to 2400 cubic ft. Am I right?

[mas]

Typically, the lower the output impedance, the less the output will change with loading and therefore the flatter the response delivered to a speaker load.

Aside from that, separates offer increased power supply regulation and capacitive reserve and thus reduced IM distortion - particularly on transients.

But your average listening levels are not excessive. And if 100 dB is representative of the transients, this is not terribly excessive either.

I would tend to suspect from your description that the biggest factor that you may encounter due to the relatively small impedance 'mismatch' will be increased distortion. And the real problem with this distortion is that it is detrimental to the long term use of the speakers.

And while I do believe that the use of separate independently regulated output stages offer advantages, I am not prepared to state that you are significantly "missing anything" with the level of efficiency offered by the speakers and the output levels at which are listening to them without additional measurements.

So, sure, if you want to spend the money, there will be an improvement. From a purist perspective I would agree with the idea of using separates and I would personally go with the Crown K1 or K2s. There, I said it.

But are you going to necessarily hear and notice the difference...in other words, can I quantify the ROI? ...That is harder to predict. I am just hesitant to tell you that you "have" to go to separates based upon the limited information I have here.

How is that for straddling the fence!?[]

[fini]

Do you want to be the king ?

Sorry about that , Fini has not been around enough lately and i miss his post. He always makes me laugh.

dtel, I was thinking TKDA was about to eat some Imperial margarine (in which case, it has nothing to do with "need": You just get one automatically when you eat the tasty spread).

[DrWho]

tk, what have you done in the realm of room acoustics? and what can you do?

I know you're asking about amps, but unless you're noticing non-linear behavior, changing to different amplification isn't going to make a huge difference (or at least it shouldn't make a big difference). I generally find recievers to be a bit on the grainy side and lacking balls, which quickly becomes apparent after a move to seperates. I attribute it to the lighter load on the reciever's power supply. But this is such a small difference compared to some other aspects of the playback chain.

Always go for the bottleneck first.