Do I Need a Crown?

[Zen Traveler]

tk, what have you done in the realm of room acoustics? and what can you do?

I have my HT in my Library. The sweet spot is basically in between 2 rooms. Front is 16.5 x13.5 ft with a high A-frame ceiling that peaks at 16 ft. Behind me is a 8.5x7.5 smaller space with a 5ft ceiling that slopes to 6 ft towards the back of my chair.

The front of my speakers are budded up against either the front of a fire place (I may be getting some refection here) or a bookcase and are toed-in so I can see the back of the horn. They are also raised 3 inches off the floor because of obstacles. I sit approx 9 ft away from my front 3 speakers and 4 ft away from my raised (12 inches to get the horns parallel with the mains) Rf-3 towers, with the RF-7's sitting on top. My rear RB-75's are 7 ft behind me laying on their side on shelves near the ceiling tilted towards the back of my head.

I have a lot of irregular surfaces in my environment and not very much floor or wall space.

[DrWho]

ah, you edited your post and lost your picture []

I've gotta go to bed...7am is way late (almost not worth going to sleep at this point)

[Zen Traveler]

I couldn't get my picture to post but here is a link to my HT pics:

http://forums.klipsch.com/photos/the_klipsch_gallery/category1003.aspx

[rockbobmel]

These Stewart World amps are popular in the "Bass Guitar" community.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_idvk4ktEgkJ:www.kingbass.com/Stewart.html+stewart+world+amp&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

That's the dope. Here's the prices.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5kmfThlODZsJ:www.bestbassgear.com/stewart-power-amps.htm+stewart+world&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

[oldbuckster]

I couldn't get my picture to post but here is a link to my HT pics:

http://forums.klipsch.com/photos/the_klipsch_gallery/category1003.aspx

Looks real good...............................R U sure you haven't got FORUMITIS?...sometimes this Forum gives you bad, money spending ideas.............that you really don't need. Sounds like you have plenty of power for that room, without hurting your speakers or receiver.

[DrWho]

So are you running the RF-3's and RS-7's at the same time? Or do you

switch between the two depending on your source (music vs movies).

The position of your front mains is fine and in some ways can be

beneficial. I might suggest pulling the speakers a little bit closer to

the listening position (like an inch or two) and experimenting with

extra toe-in (Having the axis cross in front of you).

Looking at your room I would expect some wierd cieling focusing effects

and some slapback between the parallel walls of that cubby behind you.

Your direct sound is probably very clean, but the reflected sounds are

gonna be all over the place - you're probably accustomed to your room

and able to filter them out a bit, but this extra brain processing is

going to reduce the intelligibility a bit. Perhaps not a huge issue if

you already know the music [] There's a good thread in the

architectural forum talking about treating A-shaped cielings. That

would probably be your least visually obtrusive path to take. I see

you've got stuff on the walls in the cubby, but you'd probably benefit

from treating the parallel side walls and cieling with some absorbtion

too.

Just babbling out loud.

Btw, 3.4 and 2.8 ohms is only a .6ohm difference...if you're really

that worried just use a higher resistance wire [] You're probably

picking up .2 or so as it is right now.

[Zen Traveler]

So are you running the RF-3's and RS-7's at the same time? Or do you switch between the two depending on your source (music vs movies)....

I play my RF-3's for Music and usually both for action movies.

I appreciate you looking at my situation. I travel a considerable amount to listen to Home Theaters (take my own demo disks to compare to my system) and don't feel I am getting that much reflected sound because I already sit so close to my speakers and don't have many reflective surfaces in front of me.

I will consider what you said about the rear "cubby". BTW, My rear speakers are tilted down and to the inside slightly.

Also behind my TV set is a half wall that goes up 9 ft and then is open above --that could help elevate some unwanted reflections.[]

[Zen Traveler]

...I would tend to suspect from your description that the biggest factor that you may encounter due to the relatively small impedance 'mismatch' will be increased distortion. And the real problem with this distortion is that it is detrimental to the long term use of the speakers.

TKDA: I don't hear any distortion. [:^)] Could it be I'm not getting any or am I just not recognizing it. I sure don't want to damage my speakers!

And while I do believe that the use of separate independently regulated output stages offer advantages, I am not prepared to state that you are significantly "missing anything" with the level of efficiency offered by the speakers and the output levels at which are listening to them without additional measurements.

TKDA: I have once again (I contemplated this last year when a fellow forum member had a Sunfire amp for sale) decided not to go the seperate route unless there is a chance I am doing major damage to my speaker.

.But are you going to necessarily hear and notice the difference...in other words, can I quantify the ROI? ...That is harder to predict. I am just hesitant to tell you that you "have" to go to separates based upon the limited information I have here.

How is that for straddling the fence!?[]

TKDA: A very good job, thank you. [] That ROI thing is important to me and I will straddle a little bit longer unless you feel I am doing significant damage to the speakers--other than that I am ecstatic about my Klipsch Home Theater (s).

[mas]

The distortion I am most concerened about is clipping.

Increasing the gain of a receiver to where the music sounds distorted can put out MUCH more wattage than its power rating for clean/undistorted output (reference the area under the curve). Often people believe that when they hear distortion, it's caused by their speakers not being able to handle the power. But often it is the amplifier clipping" that's causing the distortion. Playing the receiver to the point of clipping will damage a speaker, even those speakers with a power rating greater than the receivers peak undistorted output. The waveforms of clipping distortion cause speaker voice coils to rapidly heat and quickly result in damage. For this reason, it's often safer to over power a speaker rather than under power it. When a speaker is getting too much undistorted power you can usually hear when the drivers begin sounding stressed and decrease the gain down before damage occurs. When speakers are under powered, the amplifier is more prone to clipping distortion during transients and during high gain levels, resulting in speaker damage.

I am not so worried about other forms of distortion such as IM which tend to increase with multiple channels being supplied by a common power supply, etc.

If the receiver is being driven into clipping, there is a real problem. If not, you are, relatively speaking, OK.

But my primary focus, along with basic speaker design, is room acoustics. Assuming the possession of reasonably designed audio components, it is the most productive area of improvement and perhaps the largest source of acoustical error in the signal chain. Much effort has been spent even on cheap electrical components. But the norm is for little, if any, resources to be used to accurately identify and then to attempt to address the real (as opposed to the imagined) problems in the acoustical space!

This is where I would focus my energy for the greatest return.

THEN you can consider getting 2 Crown K1s and a K2 and consider upgrading to Jubilees & a few LaScalas! Of course, while you are at it, you may just want to jump right in and double the number of amps along with several active crossovers as well and bi/tri-amp.[]

[IndyKlipschFan]

Do I Need a Crown?

Not so sure.. Are you a King?

Sorry my mind works this way sometimes.. Not as bad as Paul Parrot though.

[Raider]

[TheSoundBroker]

The Crown XTi's make great full range amps. We just did a THX Ultra 2 setup and used XTi-1000's with GREAT results. We used an XTi to run a Danley Labs DTS-20 on the bottom end. Sonically, they are every bit as good as a K1/K-2...plus they have lots of tuning options.

If you have the budget...Bryston is my first choice. But barring that, the XTi hits the sweet spot for value/performance. Fans are no big deal as they rarely come on and are brain dead simple to switch out to quiet versions.

Oh...and it is TheSoundbroker.com []

[Jay481985]

So the XTi sounds as good as a qsc plxII?

[skonopa]

I am EXTREMELY happy with my system but am considering adding a 2 channel amp for my RF-7's and using my Denon AVR 4802R THX ultra II as a Preamp-- some folks say that I am missing something because of the impendence drop at 2.8 Ohms. My Ht room is heavily furnished and is approx 300 sq ft/2400 cubic feet. The AVR's THX Ultra II certification is for a 3000 cubic ft room, and is guaranteed down to 3.2 Ohms. I can listen to rock DVD's at 85 to 90 db with peaks well over 100 db without any clipping and still have room to spare on the volume. Is there a chance that a 2 channel amp may not be beneficial? I feel my speakers work seamlessly together and I don't want to mess anything up. [H]

Do you absolutely need a Crown? Probably not, but if you insist, I can get you one of those paper ones for cheap at the local Burger King! [6]

But seriously. From personal experience, when I went from powering my RF-7s with a Denon AVR3802 (which, admittedly, your 4802 is much better reciever), to using seperate amplification, I've noticed an immediate improvement in both clarity and dynamics in my RF-7s. The clarity was just un-friggan-believable with these things (and I still crack a huge smile over it some three years later!)

Now, granted, the amplification involved a $3,000 7-channel B&K Reference 200.7 amp, at 200 watts/channel. Now, I don't know how much of a difference it would make in your particular situation and your particular choice in amps, and if that difference was truly worth what you paid to get it. I guess the only real way to find out is to actually get a unit and hook it up and try it. Hopefully from somebody that'll let you return it if, in the end, you find you were better off without and just sticking with what you got.

However, in my particular case, it'll be a cold day in hell before I'd get rid of that B&K amp that I got in my system. I just friggan love how it sounds with my RF-7s! I knew the minute I hook it up and played that first album (I can't even remember what the album was - I think it was a Sonata Arctica album), there was no way it was going back. Now, I would like to eventually get a pre-pro to eventually replace the Denon AVR-3802 with.

[DrWho]

The Crown XTi's make great full range amps. We just did a THX Ultra 2 setup and used XTi-1000's with GREAT results. We used an XTi to run a Danley Labs DTS-20 on the bottom end. Sonically, they are every bit as good as a K1/K-2...plus they have lots of tuning options.

If you have the budget...Bryston is my first choice. But barring that, the XTi hits the sweet spot for value/performance. Fans are no big deal as they rarely come on and are brain dead simple to switch out to quiet versions.

Oh...and it is TheSoundbroker.com []

Dang, thems some mighty high claims to be making of these amps! I extremely love the concept driving the XTi's and have been looking for solid reviews of home listening.

I would be very interested in your perception of their biggest sonic shortcomings.

[Deang]

The XTi Series looks like it's designed to compete against the ever popular PLX Series from QSC. XTi has some nifty features, but with the Denon as your front end you don't need any of them. Once thing that stands out is how freaking ugly they are. Yuck.

I highly recommend the QSC PLX stuff for Reference -- absolutely drop dead killer sound. Nice clean output without the characteristic grain and glare I typically hear out of most solid state. They also look nice. Definitely stick with amps that use switching power supplies -- they just plain sound better. As for Bryston, I used to run a 3B-ST -- I think I had it in my system less than a month.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=245-632&ctab=2#Tabs

In spite of what Who says, you'll hear a pretty big difference. He makes good points and offers good advice on room treatment -- but no amount of room treatment brings to the table what a kick arse amplifier does.

[Jay481985]

Though the Xti is a bit cheaper matching model to model, around 100 dollar or so.

[DrWho]

well my experiences have been room acoustics make far bigger differences than amplifiers []

Though I agree better amplification certainly sounds better too...

[TheSoundBroker]

The XTi Series looks like it's designed to compete against the ever popular PLX Series from QSC. XTi has some nifty features, but with the Denon as your front end you don't need any of them. Once thing that stands out is how freaking ugly they are. Yuck.

I highly recommend the QSC PLX stuff for Reference -- absolutely drop dead killer sound. Nice clean output without the characteristic grain and glare I typically hear out of most solid state. They also look nice. Definitely stick with amps that use switching power supplies -- they just plain sound better. As for Bryston, I used to run a 3B-ST -- I think I had it in my system less than a month.

Same price range...but then again it is arguable the PLX series was brought out to compete with the CE-1000 series (and honestly stomped it). As I understand it, Crown has some pretty nifty circuit architecture in the XTi and a few of my clients have done the back and forth and come out very impressed with the XTi. Looks wise, I think they look good racked up...but that is in the eye of the beholder (try to convince my wife a pair of La Scalas are "beautiful"...you'll get nowhere fast).

Yes, QSC makes a really great amp...the ONLY thing I couldn't get around on them is the fact they are back to front ventilation. This just flat out doesn't work with a lot of home theater installs with in-wall racks and rear heat management setups. If you reverse the fans, QSC will void the warranty (believe me, I asked).

As for the Bryston...listen to an SST series amp...it will very seriously change your mind compared to the earlier versions that were pretty flat sounding. The newer SST series is simply glorious.

[TheSoundBroker]

The XTi Series looks like it's designed to

compete against the ever popular PLX Series from QSC. XTi has some

nifty features, but with the Denon as your front end you don't need any

of them. Once thing that stands out is how freaking ugly they are. Yuck.

I highly recommend the QSC PLX stuff for Reference -- absolutely

drop dead killer sound. Nice clean output without the characteristic

grain and glare I typically hear out of most solid state. They also

look nice. Definitely stick with amps that use switching power

supplies -- they just plain sound better. As for Bryston, I used to run

a 3B-ST -- I think I had it in my system less than a month.

Same

price range...but then again it is arguable the PLX series was brought

out to compete with the CE-1000 series (and honestly stomped it). As I

understand it, Crown has some pretty nifty circuit architecture in the

XTi and a few of my clients have done the back and forth and come out

very impressed with the XTi. Looks wise, I think they look good racked

up...but that is in the eye of the beholder (try to convince my wife a

pair of La Scalas are "beautiful"...you'll get nowhere fast).

Yes, QSC makes a really great amp...the ONLY thing I couldn't get

around on them is the fact they are back to front ventilation. This

just flat out doesn't work with a lot of home theater installs with

in-wall racks and rear heat management setups. If you reverse the fans,

QSC will void the warranty (believe me, I asked).

As for the Bryston...listen to an SST series amp...it will very

seriously change your mind compared to the earlier versions that were

pretty flat sounding. The newer SST series is simply glorious.