got my new denon and sub...but questions for you!

[b-man1]

i couldn't find the denon 1802 in stock anywhere local so i got the 2802 instead...and the ksw-12 sub. i replaced my old 100W pro logic sony and hooked up only the fronts (old pioneer cs-703 4-way speakers) and the sub.

what i'm finding is that the denon is MUCH less powerful than the old sony...even though it's rated at 90W for 6.1 sound. what's up with this? is it just me doing something wrong? to get "impressive" in-your-face volume i have to turn the denon to (-15dB) or higher. the volume range is (-70dB) to (+18dB). is this normal for these receivers...meaning the real power comes after turning it 2/3 of the way up? just asking because the old sony would practically make your ears bleed by 4/10 on the volume. is this just the design? the pioneer speakers kick @ss...even though they are 17+ years old, rated at 90dB+ sensitivity w/ both ribbon and horn tweaters in each, with a 4" mid and 16" sub.

finally, the ksw-12 does not seem to be very noticable during normal music (with bass) until the receiver is cranked up fairly high. i have adjusted the crossover and volume on the sub but with little effect.

thanks-

[TheEAR]

Yes its normal,I have both the Denon 3801 and 5800 and both need to be at -20 to blast my ears.And I dont just use 90dB speakers,I use Klipsch RF-7,RC-7 and RF-5's(as sourrounds!)and three to four subs fill the sub bass!

Unless I use huge(power output)power amps like the Krell FPB600,Carver TFM-75 or Celeste 4250SE I have to turn the dial up to about -20(3801) and -16(5800)when paires with the Klipsch Reference speakers!

And trust me the 5800 has more power then any old reciever.Its the design of tyhe vol gain.Older recievers even 3/10 the volume sounded powerful.

But these recievers could never reach above 6 or 7/10,after the distortion was huge and they all clip.

So its relative,the closer you get to 0dB on the reciever display the closer you get to maximum power,sometimes you need to set the speakers to +12dB in the menu and then start to pump the master volume towards 0dB.

About the sub,a well matched sub should not BOOM,just integrate well.Where the sats(lets say mains)leave the sub picks up.So when there is no deep bass the sub should remain silent.

Hope it helps

BTW good reciever choice

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[T2K]

b-man1,not surprising.I have an old digital SonyES receiver that I used for years for stereo music and it was much more musical than my present Denon 3801.

It actually has many features todays Denon's don't.The newer Sony's pale compared to the newer Denon's,IMO,but

then again they cost about 1/2 as much.

The volume problem is normal.Crank it up and enjoy the ride.

Keith

Did you turn up the sub volume in your receiver's set-up menu?

[b-man1]

thanks for the quick reply. now i don't feel like i'm doing something wrong.

i can't wait to play around w/ the denon more. the big drawback to it so far is that many of the setup features are only available through the on-screen setup...which is inconvenient. oh-well...i'll get used to it. hehe

i understand what you're saying about the sub blending in. i'm just not used to higher quality sound and had a different perception of what the ksw-12 would sound like. once my rear and center speakers arrive it should fill in nicely.

thanks!

talktoKeith-

yes, i adjusted the sub level...but not too high (+8dB)...i'll crank it up to +12 if need be. i just wanted to make sure i was setting it up properly before compensating w/ the fl/fr/sw levels. i guess it's normal to turn those up to +10/12?

This message has been edited by b-man1 on 11-16-2001 at 01:30 AM

[TheEAR]

Oups a small mistake...

On the 3801 I turn the volume up to -20dB to bleed my ears,on the 5800 its around -24dB.Oups my mistake

When I use the large external power amps -30dB is plenty.Closer to zero and my ears limiters kick in.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[BigBusa]

bman i too had an old sony (str-d611 60w x 2) that on volume setting #2 with the loudness switch on, connected to my cornwalls (no sub), it would shake my internal organs.

What the heck happened? The new recievers deliver bass and satisfying volume levels totally different than the recievers of 5 - 10 years ago.

On your sub not producing enough bass make sure the gain is up high. Maybe even all the way up.

------------------

My system thus far:

1980 Cornwalls (mains)

1990 Heresy II's (rears)

2001 KLF-C7 (center)

2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer)

HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!)

Kenwood DV402 (DVD)

Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV)

This message has been edited by BigBusa on 11-16-2001 at 08:43 AM

[bacevedo]

OK - I just couldn't let this go.

I have the 3802 receiver, and the volume gets plenty loud!

What you guys are experiencing is that the new volume controls are logarithmic - meaning each "click" represents a certain number of db's louder. So going from -40 to -30 is a 10 db increase in volume. But that is still a low volume. Going from -30 to -20 is again a 10 db increase, but the overal volume is a bit louder. Same from -20 to -10, only a 10 db increase, but now you are at 10 db below reference - which is freaking loud! It's like being in a car, and going from 5 MPH to 10 MPH, then 10 to 20, 20 to 40, and then all of a sudden you are going from 40 to 80. The difference between 40 and 80 is much bigger than 10 and 20. However, you are only doubling the speed each time. SPL is the same way - every 10db increase is like doubling the volume level, so at first it's not a huge difference, but then all of a sudden, you double a sort of loud level into a really loud level.

But for an old volume control, it has no correlation with db increments. It just increases the gain or whatever, so on your old receiver, turning the volume 1/4 turn or whatever may increase the volume by 15 db, and then a 1/3 turn does 20 db. But it is not linear. It may get louder faster, but then you can't get it any louder. The amp is maxed out. It's like having only two settings, soft or loud. The new receivers (including the new Yamahas) let you adjust at just about any volume. There is no such thing as a volume knob setting. There is a digital display that tells what db volume you are at below reference.

The other thing is you may be hearing loud levels for the first time without significant distortion and clipping. For example, I had an older JVC receiver, that "just got so loud with little volume changes". Then I got my Denon, and I thought, this doesn't seem that loud. So I kept cranking it, and cranking it. And finally it seemed loud. But then I would try to talk to someone, and I couldn't even hear my own voice. When my JVC seemed loud, I could still talk over it. The difference is, when you are used to loud being that harsh edgy sound, clean undistorted loud doesn't seem loud. Get out an spl meter - you would be surprised at the actual volume you are at. It's just that it is clean, and doesn't feel uncomfortable, something you are not used to. Trust me, I was kind of confused at first, too. When you play it loud, with low distortion, it won't seem loud. When was the last time you were at a live orchestra concert (no amplification) and said, damn that is too loud. The SPL's are there, but there is no distortion.

On your sub level - do not put your sub level on the receiver higher than -2. My suggestion would be to set your receiver sub level to -2, and then adjust the gain on the sub. Why -2? Sound & Vision tested the 3801, and it had 2.9% distortion at a setting of 0. They said a level of -2 would insure that the sub out of the receiver would never go into distortion. I would imagine your receiver would have either the same or worse. So setting it to +8 will be adding all kinds of distortion that your sub is going to amplify (and add its own distortion to). Not only that, you can overdrive the inputs on the sub, causing it to perform poorly.

I hope this helps.

Bryan

This message has been edited by bacevedo on 11-16-2001 at 03:38 PM