jdm56 Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 OK, this is probably a dumb question that I should already know the answer to, but I don't. So being the lazy guy I am, I thought I'd just ask y'all instead of digging for the answer my own self. The question is, when burning CD's on my PC for playback on home and car CD players, do I have to use music, or audio CD-R's, or can I get by just as well with the less expensive "data" variety? What is the difference, anyway, other than having to pay a royalty built into the "music" CD-R's price to compensate starving record executives and pop stars for the great loss they incur when I record, for my own use, copies of muic that I have already paid for? (yes, I do resent this. why does protection of their rights justify the trampling of mine?)f> ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 I think bits are bits and data streams are data streams, I use re-clocking jitter reduction devices and my recordings on data cds seem to be identical to the original. Like yourself, I would welcome any further enlightenment on this matter. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 I never saw the difference in this either Ray. I mean, music on a CD is really Data anyway. That whole binary-code thing. How one number can be more 'musical' than another is beyond me. ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany (Cornell Hotwired) McIntosh C33 Preamp McIntosh MVP-841 CD/DVD Rotel RB-1080 Amp Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Ortofon VMS-30 mkII Cartridge Stanton 999SS Cartridge Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 400mk II Monster Interlink 300mk II Monster Video 2 (DVD to TV) Studio Tech U-48RW Cabinet Monster Power HTS-5000 Power Conditioner/Surge Protector Original 12ga. Monster Cable Enough empty boxes for a fire hazard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 the reason for those i because of right protection. at walmart, 35 music cd's, 750 mb cost $35 at walmart, 50 data cd's, 750 mb cost $35 both are memorex or verbatim. just because of the lawsuits and such, they have to charge more. ------------------ -justin I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 As I understand the matter, the only enemy digital playback has is timing errors. Of course, the sample rate and bit-length of a particular medium seem to make a difference too (cd vs. sacd), but that's not a deficiency we can address very easily (unless you're soundog, with his fancy-schmancy Perpetual Techonologies P-1A digital correction engine that interpolates upsampled signals with info more useful than dither). However, the errors in the timing of digital to analog conversion and in other digital signal processing events has been touted as being the biggest boundary between digital and analog sound. I don't have any listening experience with these timing errors (yet -- I have the P-3A, soundog; the P-1A will come when I can upgrade transport), but the explanations make sense. If the digital to analog conversion does not occur in the same time context as the conversion from analog to digital, then you have the right note being played at the wrong time. As most musicians will tell you (I'm also not a musician), the right note at the wrong time is the wrong note. However, I don't see how digital copies of digital media could possibly introduce timing errors. AFter all, there is no clock at work when a cd is copied to a cd-r, right? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 If you get the P1A you will not need to upgrade your transport as long as you have digital out from your present transport. You already have excellent DAC in the P3A. I use regular Sony Changers and they work great! As regards the clocking mechanism I'm not sure how that works but know that data streams can be "reclocked" to reduce "jitter". Again, I would welcome enlightenment in this regard. Maybe its all BS but it sure sounds better to me. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 JDMcCall, The reason there is a difference between "music" CD-ROM blanks and "data" CD-ROM blanks can be traced to the old RIAA worries about losing money if people copy stuff. The Digital Audio CDR Media (aka "Music CD-ROM) is designed for use in Home Entertainment Center CD Recorders such as the Phillips 765 and 870 or the Pioneer PDR-V500 Recorders. These recorders do not use standard CDR media. They require media that conforms to the Serial Copy Management System (SCMS) format. The purpose of SCMS is to protect the copyright of recorded CDs. Recorders that support the SCMS standard are designed to only work with Digital Audio media that supports the SCMS format. SCMS allows a perfect duplicate copy of a CD to be made. Once recorded, it will play in any CD player just as the disk from which it is copied. However, the recorded disk cannot be used to generate a copy of itself. This "copy of a copy" protection is the purpose of the SCMS recording mode. The CD-ROM in your computer does not conform to this standard, and will work with any blank media. "Professional" CD records do not adhere to this standard. However, if you try to put a non-Music CD-ROM in a dedicated consumer CD recorder, it will not be able to read or record that media. When the Music CD-ROMs first came out, and there were a LOT more expensive than the data-grade blanks, some enterprising folks discovered that if you load a Music CD-ROM into the recorder, let it get itself all set up to record, then (without turning off or resetting the recorder) PRY OPEN the disc tray, and replace the Music CD-ROM with a data CD-ROM, the recorder will not know that you've pulled a switch, and will record happily onto the data disc. This whole stupid point has been rendered somewhat mute as just about everybody uses their PC to record CD's, and the CD-ROM drives in the PC were not part of this, uh, whatever this was. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Once again Ray hit the nail on the head. Standalone burners must use the music blanks. PC's don't care and the cheaper ones will work fine. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Good replys: If ANYONE said that Music CD-R's sounded "more musical" or "better" than Data CD-R's, I would have started shooting. Anyway, FILE data needs more integrity than MUSIC data. I have learned that the hard way a few times:-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Soundog: My Onkyo Integra cd carousel only has a Toslink output. As I understand it, the P-1A does not have a Toslink input. No matter what, I'll want to take advantage of the I2S format to link the digital components: the jitter reduction inherent in the separation of the clock info from the music data appears to be worth it. However, I wish Perpetual Technologies supported the I2S Enhanced format, because the regular I2S format does not appear to support what is referred to as Level 1 performance (where the clock in the unit receiving the signal from the transport is fed back to the transport to use as its clock). Communications with the dudes at PTech indicate that they intend to come out with a transport in the far future. Hopefully they will also issue an upgrade to feed the P-3A's clock back to the transport (right...). It's not gonna be that big of a deal until I have a total system revealing enough to make it an issue, but I'd like to be future-proof with CD's. My understanding of how the clocks work in the digital domain is very limited, but I'll try anyway. As I understand it, the transport mechanism has to send a clocked signal to the DAC, because the transport itself performs some kind of encoding before it sends the signal to the DAC. So, if the original analog signal was converted to digital at a sampling rate of 44.1khz with 16-bit words, the transport has to encode those 44,100 16-bit words every second at the same time as those words were created to begin with in the analog to digital conversion. This is a source of timing error (jitter), I believe, but not the biggest source. It's a source of error, because it's difficult to make a clock that is THAT accurate. As I understand it, a timing error of 100 picoseconds is audible; 100 picoseconds is the time it takes light to travel about one inch. If it's tough to make a clock that ticks off whole seconds to an accuracy of better than a few seconds per year, what would it be like to make a clock that's accurate to 100 picoseconds every second or nanosecond even? If the transport signal has to be converted into s/pdif format to send to the DAC, the data becomes "stamped" or burned into the transport's clock information. In such a situation, the DAC has to reconstruct the clock from the s/pdif signal by making certain assumptions about how many bits are supposed to be in one clock unit, but which may not be correct due to the timing errors of the transport clock. In other words, the DAC may presume that there are supposed to be so many bits in one clock cycle, but error has actually lengthened or shortened the amount of bits included in an s/pdif clock cycle designation. I2S is supposed to solve the damage done by s/pdif encoding by keeping the clock information separate from the data, so the data is not crammed into the transport clock's time divisions. Instead the DAC takes the clock info and applies it to the data (much like a cookie cutter) for a second time around. The trick is that the second application of clock data (done by the DAC) uses the clock data of the transport, so it is less likely to introduce its own timing error. However, if that is the case, why would it be that important to have the transport clock act as slave to the DAC clock when the same amount of error seems to be avoided by the DAC clock acting as slave to the transport clock? Maybe the various levels of encoding of cd information make the DAC clock less susceptible to jitter? Anyway, that's how I understand it. Any corrections would certainly be appreciated. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted November 17, 2001 Author Share Posted November 17, 2001 Thanks Ray, I think I got the gist of that. ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Blorry Posted November 17, 2001 Share Posted November 17, 2001 The big thing I want to know is how long home-burned CDs will last! Is the media that is used for home-made CDs as durable as the factory burned ones? I remember in the old days of laser discs (circa 1980) there was a noticeable degradation in quality of the big old discs over time. I know modern factory CDs are far better than they used to be, but I wonder about ho-made stuff. Anyone comment on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted November 18, 2001 Author Share Posted November 18, 2001 Main point: factory CD's are stamped, not burned. Of course the dyes in CD-R's/RW's are supposed to be unalterable unless heated by the laser, so logic would seem to dictate they would be very durable. But, perhaps only time will tell. They should certainly trump any tape format in durability, though. ...'course I've been wrong before! ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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