BARRA BAZZ: The Genesis Part 1 Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Very ..'80's vibe ...... Hey Duke, yes, you are right. I began with making music in 1981 and in this times Iron Maiden were my personal music gods:) in this old times. And you know what was born in the 80s - people like Bon Yovi combined rock with Synths and more melodies. Perhaps there was my style of musical thinking born. What i did not like from the 80s was the sound of the most CD s - i prefer a dry sound with not too much reverb and not too much gain and sounding more earthstanding like the most newer productions. For example i really love the sound of Sinners: There will be execution or Metallicas St. Anger. Cheers Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werner Enge Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Congratulations , Werner , sounds good and complete ! On some parts the voice I would like a little "warmer" , but that´s only my opinion and my personal taste . Anyway , keep goin´on with that project ! greetz . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRA BAZZ: The Genesis Part 1 Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Congratulations , Werner , sounds good and complete ! On some parts the voice I would like a little "warmer" , but that´s only my opinion and my personal taste . Anyway , keep goin´on with that project ! greetz . Hey Werner, thanx for feedback! On my equipment the voice sounds warm and full - perhaps because almighty Emitter, i will test that with some other peoples equipment and decide if we chould make the endmix a little bit warmer. Cheers Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 hmmmnnnn...... time to use ....... a Monitor speaker ...??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRA BAZZ: The Genesis Part 1 Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Hey Duke, most Monitor speakers are for nearfield or midfield monitoring. I dont like that because there are waves which are too long to be heared in short hearing distances. I prefer monitoring between 5 and 7 meters hearing distance - so that i can audit the music like in a live concert . For me this is easier to work and more sounding reality like. Its much easier to mix the bass range. Cheers Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Noooooooo ........ use a Westlake, a JBL, a Urei, an Altec.... not the new-wave tinny desk top crap they pass off as "monitors" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I dont like that because there are waves which are too long to be heared in short hearing distances. What is your source of that information? To keep it short, that is completely 100% false. It's just an old rumor that doesn't seem to want to die. To demonstrate for yourself, listen on a pair of headphones - you can most certainly hear the long wavelengths. I did get a chance to listen to the recording last night on my Chorus II based setup. I totally dig the stereo spread on the backup vocals around 2:00. The style is definetly interesting too. However, there are a few things I would change - I hope you'll take it as constructive feedback. Sometimes efforts to be objective can come across a bit insulting and that is most certainly not intended. I wouldn't spend the time writing if I thought it was stupid. 1) Tune that snare drum - yikes. It's especially apparent in the sections around 3:00 and 6:00. That ringing has gotta go. I would suggest retracking it, but you might be able to do something with some heavy compression. A touch of EQ'd reverb wouldn't hurt either. 2) You might consider trying to make the toms on the drum kick more explosive instead of round and bubbly. I think it would better cater to the feel of the song. If you don't want to retrack, then you could throw on some compression and a touch of effects (perhaps an EQ'd plate post compression). 3) The tone of the instruments individually is pretty good, but the combination doesn't jive. Right now it sounds like the mix is in the post-tracking, pre-mixing stage where everything is loud and the same volume. For example, around 4:00 I think you have 3 guitars going? Rhythm, and two leads stereo spread? Each of the leads should have a slightly different timbre - like pick one to be bright and the other to be a bit grungier. And then the center rhythm and bass guitar need to drop back in the mix and let the leads be in the forefront. Maybe tighten up the stereo spread a bit too. 4) Vocals - I see what you're aiming for with the dry very not "pop" vocals. I think you're going to need to add a little processing though...especially in the 5:20 region. Gotta make the different vocals sound different. What is that, a duet singing along with the lead singer? I think a touch of vocal doubler on the lead singer would really help bring out the guts in his voice - especially around 6:08 when he's holding out them notes. And then just after that, 6:20, you should throw just a touch of reverb on the vocals - it'll help minimize the timing issues, make it sound like more people, and when done correctly it'll actually be a bit drier (which is what I think you're going for). I think it would also help if you got the vocal mics further away (especially for background) and up a bit higher too. Right now it sounds like you're singing in an isobooth. Maybe try recording some of the vocals in a bathroom/shower. Just be careful of comb-filtering. 5) Intro - I'm not sure how the first 10 seconds fit into the song. After you get into the song it sounds fine, but the dissonance is terrifying upon a first listening. And what are they chanting around 1:40? "Signs of old"? Maybe try moving the vocal mic up higher and get a more nasally sound to help it sound not as flat. It sounds like they're waivering on the note too, which doesn't jive. And be sure background vocals are in the background. 6) bass guitar - especially around 2:30, it's hard to differentiate between the bass guitar and the electric guitar. I love crunchy bass, but it could use a bit more oompf in the low end. It's kinda hard to tell if it's even a bass guitar - I'm not that good at picking out instruments [][] 7) What is that synth sound in the background at 1:17? Instead of bringing the volume down to put it in the back of the mix, try EQ'ing out some of the lower mids and bumping the high-end. Put it's location on top in the back that way it doesn't sound like noise. It took me about 6 listens to finally figure out what it was. 8) 2:30ish and 6:00ish...are the guitar players sitting? I would try to encourage a lot more body movement - really get them to tear away at their instruments. It sounds too clean [] 9) 2:50 - the guitar sound walking down could be a bit more dominant/brighter. Right now it's competing with the synth. 10) 4:50 - bring out the synth I think that's a good start for now. Most of the suggestions I'm making are just ways I might go about layering the music. Everyone has a different style, but I was trying to be a bit practical in suggesting more layers. Right now everything is "loud" and "close". A cool trick I picked up is to play the music and then walk into an adjacent room (or stand just outside the doorway). The layering becomes more dramatic and you can hear each individual instrument easier - right now it's hard to tell outside the room (which means it sounds like noise). There should also be a distinct change between layering every time the song "changes" - whether it be the chorus, verse, bridge, transition, whatever you wanna call each segment of the song (cuz you're all over the place which is really cool). You should quickly notice that things will start sounding very much thinner once you start layering. This is normal and a good thing because it provides space to add effects. Don't add effects for the sake of adding effects, but it's with this extra space and processing that you can make everything sound like a cohesive whole; instead of a bunch of nice sounding instruments playing their own things at the same time. Btw, is the lead singer holding his mic? It sounds like his distance keeps moving all over the place which is introducing some wierd effects that don't seem to be intentional. One last comment - good compression actually increases the apparent dynamic range. And you can still have a compressed sound with insane dynamic range. I mention that in hopes of dispelling the idea that compressors make things sound compressed. Only over-used compressors will do that. You should also invert the polarity on the kick drum channel. When you top-mic all the drums, the mic diaphragm moves out first because the stick pushes the drum pad down away from the mic first. However, the kick drum impulse pushes the mic diaphragm inward. So when your drummer hits the snare and the kick at the same time you end up with more of a thud rather than a cool crack thump because of the phase cancellation. I can draw up some pictures if this doesn't make any sense. 3:40, what is the foreground main instrument? Bring it forward and knock back the rhythm section. And bring out the cool synth sounds in the background. (sorry, been listening to the song on repeat while writing all this). It sounds like you've been working on this song for a long time and you know what you want things to sound like, but in the process you're starting to ignore the flaws while you enjoy your music. Taking breaks is a good thing (like for multiple days) and then when you come back try not to enjoy the music and you'll start noticing a bunch of things. Heck, even now I'm starting to enjoy it more as I'm tuning out more things each time I listen to it. rock on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 oh btw, did I mention that I love the sound of heavy guitars with synth/orchestration? Very much a fan of nightwish, ayreon, avantasia, etc etc... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Hmmm. I don't think this is DrWho's first rodeo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heideana Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I loaded the demo onto my server and played it back thru my CWIIIs. I think folks are right about the starting vocal sounding a bit to forcedreminded me of Rock Star: Supernova, but it settles down as the song progresses into a kinda teutonic Motown and does some nice keyboard stuff. Reminds me of a cross between Motown, Procol Harum and Judas PriestI could get into grooving on it, especially if you open the mix so you get the soundstage say on The Sad Wings of Destiny (Duke, isnt that 70s???) and cleaned up the vocals in a way that the listener understands the nuisances of whats being said without losing the style. Id also like to hear a hot guitar lead somewhere in there tooit sounds like youre running a Christian theme through your whole project or are you thinking in terms of universal guardians of all thats good and true? Id like to hear more stuff and Ill let you know what I think when I can play it back over my RF-7s with Denon HT amp..[H]. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> In terms of using RF-7s for studio monitors, I asked this question before. Even though the boys mix is rough, it reminds me of what I hear in stuff from the 60-70s (i.e. Love, Big Brother, Jade Warrior, early Grand Funk) where everything is real crisp, clear, and stands out a bit better, unlike what I hear in mixes from the 80s on. I wonder how much of that has to do with the RF-7s? It makes me wonder how much stuff released today designed to play in cars and on low-end equipment doesnt sound as good over RF-7s and other high-end speakers? Im also intrigued as to why RF-7s are becoming cult like in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Germany? The other question is why would RF-7's be used over Heritage speakers...Klipschorns and CW's have been used for monitors, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 you are defeating the purpose of having a " monitor " speaker ..... by using Stereo equipment..... the term " monitor " ....is almost meaningless these days from incorrect useage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heideana Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I finally was able to listen to this track over my RF-7's and thought I point out that the guitar solo stood out and sparkled, where as over the CWIII's, I didn't even notice it. I went back to listen to the track again on the CW's, partially because I couldn't believe I missed it, that section sounds more like a rhythm section that needs a solo over it...its' not as "big" sounding... Also, I noticed on the RF-7's that the whole piece starts out strained sounding, like the singer's voice, and the sound stage is really small/compressed, like its' trying to get out of its' boxl; however, by the time I went to make a note, the sound stage, like the vocal, had become much more spacious, spread-out and defined...I hadn't initially noticed that on the CW's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiocvk Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 That's because the RF-7's strongest realistic dead center vocal imaging is different than that of the Cornwall. The RF-7 will put the singer dead center without any trailing to the left or right speaker. The RF-7's imaging is one of its best features, very believable of the singers position without overstating it's position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heideana Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 How does the RF-7 compare with the Klipschorn? Any idea how much RF-7's are actually being used in Euoropean studios? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Any idea how much RF-7's are actually being used in Euoropean studios? I would speculate ....... None Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 One thing about the RF-7 in particular...it has that nasty resonant peak in the upper mids. I forget the actual frequency, but such an artifact is probably going to dramatically affect a recording - might explain why the RF-7 owners are able to hear the guitar solo (since boosting the upper mids can really bring a guitar out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 where's that peak ...?? > 500 < 2500 hz ...??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Holy Moly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heideana Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Thanks Mike! I wasn't dreaming then....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRA BAZZ: The Genesis Part 1 Posted October 26, 2006 Author Share Posted October 26, 2006 where's that peak ...?? > 500 < 2500 hz ...??? Hey, i got around 300 feedbacks from Europe and they nearly all love the sound. Even some High End Audio Dealers do use our song for demonstation of very high priced equipment. I readed the comments here and im very surprised that you have problems with the sound. On my 3 equipments its the best record i ever heard with a very big stage, a brutally bass and a flubbergasting transparence. Though i must say that i do use ASR Emitters in two of my equipments. But even in my damned Ford the sound is perfect and every instrument is clear hearable. To the vocals and the singer- he has studied music and is a professionell vocalist so i sended the song to some well known vocalists from the rock business like Ralf Scheepers from Primal Fear (www.primalfear.de ) . And even his statement was that its absolutely fantastic. You must know Hans is singing since a period over 30 years with many experience in bands like DarkStar , Erotica, Velvet Tears and he has a well known Cover Band here in germany, the ULTRALOVERS which are filling big concert halls. So after all this comments i was visiting a lot of hifi friends with different equipments and did some serious listening sessions and i noticed that it was ever the same - if a tube CD Player or a tube amp was working the sound was really non satisfying with a little stage and vocals really do sounded unnatural and "nosy" - i really was falling on my *** last weekend. Its frustrating. But by visiting friends who have serious SS Equipment it sounded so gorgeous that they all wanted to have a copy and they really loved it. I was auditing now with the following speakers with best results: Sonus Faber Cremona Tannoy Kensington plus ST 200 Tannoy M 1 Tannoy System 1200 Tannoy D 700 Tannoy D 900 Tannoy Westminster T.W. plus ST 200 Klipsch RF 7 JBL 5000 TI ALR Jordan 7 ALR Jordan 3 Quadral Titan MK 6 Elac 609 MK 2 JBL L 90 B u W 802 B u W 803 With all this speakers it was sounding perfect - most of them audited with ASR Emitters from different generations. However, our manager was now approving the sound (he only judges with headphones) so we go our way further on the road and will record the album. Definitive we will further do the mixing job with the Klipsch RF 7 ! All in all we have around 500 feedbacks around the world with a quote(voting) "A" by over 70% of the listeners! But we see that in USA nearly nobody loves the sound or the music - so i will perhaps not release the album there. Thanks for your comments! Cheers Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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