Jubilee Corner Placement?

[tidmack]

Here's an easy one: does the Jubilee require corner placement to complete the bass horn?

Jeff

[Mike Lindsey]

If I'm not mistaken it does not. That's the beauty of the Jubilee. Well that, and that big ole horn sitting on top. []

Mike

[tidmack]

Mike,

I swear that's what I read too. But, some of the recent Jubilee discussion made it seem as though corner placement was necessary. Let's see if anyone else can set us straight! Thanks for your help-

Jeff

[Coytee]

I'm not an expert so I'll defer to Roy...

Given that, I once DID ask him this very question and just how 'tight' they had to be in a corner (mine are pulled out from both walls and facing more square into the room instead of 45 degree angles)

Here is my email to him and his response back (in blue), maybe this will answer sufficiently?

Hi Roy, another question for you, this one a bit more relevant to me.

Is the Jubilee designed to be "tight" in a corner like the Khorn or is it able to be more freestanding?

One reason I ask is wondering about moviehouses (or anywhere you all sell them for cinema use)... do those places all happen to have corners behind the screen or do they face them forward? (my guess is face them forward)

However, in relation to above, I realize the cinemas might have them flat against a backwall and maybe THAT is preferable in lieu of a corner.

I guess I'm just trying to see if how I've pulled them out is a "mistake" for lack of better word. Though near the corner as any pic you've previously seen, they facing more directly into the room now, toed outward instead of the 45 degree angle they'd otherwise been on.

With my room being about 16 feet wide, a table occupies the sweetspot. By pulling them out and rotating outward, I've been able to move that spot further back in the room.

Just makes me wonder if I gave up some bass response by doing that.

in a corner certainly helps the bass response but pulling them out doesn't make much difference because of the wavelengths we are talking about. you would have to be on the order of a foot or so on each side before something showed up or actually, went away.

[tidmack]

Coytee,

Thanks for the help. When Roy said "you would have to be on the order of a foot or so on each side before something showed up", was he just referring to the natural response increase of having a speaker in a corner? Or does the Jubilee drop like a K-horn drops outside of a corner?

I have a 20' X 13' room with my speakers along the 20' wall. I have one good corner, but the other one is crummy. My lascala sits about 3' from that corner, against the wall. Thanks again for your help.

Jeff

[Coytee]

The quick answer is I'm clueless, though I'd speculate with some degree of comfort that the Jubilee does NOT drop like a rock (Khorn).

I CAN however, speak from a practical viewpoint [H]

I've not measured mine (and if I remember when I get home, I'll try to take a picture to clearly show it to you)

Mine are ROUGHLY 10" out from each wall. Meaning, NO side of my speaker is touching the right OR left wall. I pulled them STRAIGHT out from the corner (45 degrees) and then I rotated them both outward, facing more directly into the room.

The outer vertical edge of the exit horn is proably less than 10" away from the wall.

Given what I've read, I have thought to push them BACK to the corner and maybe twist the upper horn outwards & see what happens (bass increase and at same time widen the sweet spot?)

I've not done that yet and really don't know that I will. I fear a quirky sound if the bass bin is pointing into the room at 45 degrees and the HF horn is all funky being pulled out a bit and pointing into a wider/different direction. This isn't to even open the can of worms where I like things to be squared up (HF horn in same direction of LF horn)

Given the spacing of mine, the bass is STILL stupendous and NOT feeling like it needs ANY backing up. It also feels like it will STILL step all over a Khorn (sorry Khorn owners) even when pulled away from the corner/wall.

If there WERE to be a difference, I really think we're talking small degrees here. Nothing that would be earth shaking.

Does your setup infer a Jubilee would also sit about 3' out of the corner? If so, I can see if I can emulate that situation for you and give a very UN-technical seat of the pants review?

I don't really think it would be an accurate thing to do, given different rooms and all, but it MIGHT be accurate enough if I did a left/right comparison with one jub IN the corner and the other one 3' out?

Perhaps that will give a valid enough report card on the difference?

[8-)] [8-)] [8-)]

[tidmack]

Coytee,

Thanks! Yes, the Jubilee would also sit about 3' from the corner, against the wall. I'm in absolutely no hurry, as the Jubilee is sort of a pipedream at this point. . .but I would be interested in your untechnical review of how the bass is when your Jubilee(s) are about 3' over from the corner. Have a good one-

Jeff

[Coytee]

Coytee,

Thanks! Yes, the Jubilee would also sit about 3' from the corner, against the wall. I'm in absolutely no hurry, as the Jubilee is sort of a pipedream at this point. . .but I would be interested in your untechnical review of how the bass is when your Jubilee(s) are about 3' over from the corner. Have a good one-

Jeff

As a point of clarification, would it be 3' out from EACH the right & left wall? or 3' out from one of them and against the other? (if so, which one would it be next to?)

I'll try to set it up as close to your reality as I can, given some of my equipment constraints.

[tidmack]

Wow, what service! To be technical, my right speak sits in the corner (well, the best that a lascala can sit in a corner) on a 45 degree angle. My left speaker is the one that sits about 3' in from the corner, against the wall. I "could" (and do) put it in the corner, but my front door makes up one of the corners. I can lug my lascala in and out of the corner pretty easily, but I'm not sure I want to move a Jubilee! Hope this helps.

Jeff

[Coytee]

Wow, what service! To be technical, my right speak sits in the corner (well, the best that a lascala can sit in a corner) on a 45 degree angle. My left speaker is the one that sits about 3' in from the corner, against the wall. I "could" (and do) put it in the corner, but my front door makes up one of the corners. I can lug my lascala in and out of the corner pretty easily, but I'm not sure I want to move a Jubilee! Hope this helps.

Jeff

Couple things... first and most... the Jubilees are not THAT much worse than a LaScala. Are they worse? yes, but not that much. The LaScalas have an advantage (IMHO) in that they're easier to get a GRAB on, simply because their size and you don't have that confounded HORN staring you in the face!! (not that I'm complaining)

Now, regarding your left speaker, which wall is it against? If you're facing the speaker, (corner), do I slide the speaker 3' down the left wall (door on right), or do I slide speaker 3' to the right (door on left)?

I know it probalby doesn't matter, but as long as I'm shoving things around, I may as well give as accurate portrayal as I can.

Oh, and when I burst a disk in my spine, how do I reach you? [6]

[tidmack]

Coytee,

Here's an old thread of mine shortly after I got my subs that shows my room (crummy pics, but they get the idea across):

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/692090.aspx

The left speaker (if you're looking at the speakers) is to the right of the corner about 3'. So instead of the the speakers being 20' apart, they're about 17' apart. The rear of the speaker is still against the back wall, so it isn't a situation where the speaker is now along a side wall. . .the speakers are still in front of the listening position.

I'm completely satisfied with my current setup, but I keep hearing how great the Jubilees are. . .

Jeff

[Coytee]

Don't let anyone mislead you, they really are something else... you should look into the price of a ticket from there to Knoxville... I'll provide room & board for evening.

Looking at your room, I see... your right corner is not an issue. If this were MY room I guess what I'd do is simply move the Jubilee in so the door isn't an issue (like I see your LaScala). That will make it more narrow but...your choices do seem to be limited. I guess you really don't appear to have a friendly room [].

I know it's not my place, but if it was, I think I'd consider flipping the room over and put the speakers (Jubilees and or LaScalas) on the inside of each doorway, window to my back. I know that has other issues, but that is probably what I'd do.

Point being, If I already HAD the speakers and had your house, I'd MAKE it work []. My wife on the other hand, is more visual concerned than I am and woudn't like those asthetics. She'd vote for me to put my LaScalas and Jubilee bass bins into the fireplace so she could appreciate their "warm sound"

[8-)]

[Coytee]

Try this experiement...

Take your LaScala (single, near door) put some good sounding music you like on (turn subs off) (put it in mono), turn other speaker off too.

Spin speaker around and have it face OUT the door and start to walk away from it.

Get 5' away, 10', 50' and see if there is a place where the sound melds together as a singular wash of sound. My Khorns did this and it took them like 30' for it to happen. They sounded distinctly different at 30' than they did at say, 15'. My understanding is, there is the distance needed for the three drivers to "come together" as a singular wave.

With the Jubilee, I don't have that anymore. I can be near 5' away from them and the sound is for all intents, the same as it is, 30' away. They come together MUCH sooner, which Mike explained to me, was one of the primary benefits of a well designed 2 way, over a 3 way.

To me, THAT specific difference, is perhaps something that might make a difference to you, in your room (sound coming together quicker).

Maybe the Khorns are worse at that than LaScalas, I don't know. Maybe someone else can chime in about that...where the heck is Dr. WHo when you need him...studying? pfftttttttttt

I'd be intrigued for you to hear your LaScalas pointed outside and if YOU can detect any (significant) difference when you're standing further away.

[Coytee]

Not to put up some cheap post counts but... [A]

Another thing you could at least investigate... the HF horn on the Jubilee WITH your LaScalas??

I asked Roy about that and he thought it would work nicely. You could keep your LaSclalas, LOSE them as a table (on right with lamp) since your HF horns would be on top of them. Change down to a 2 way and have that really funky horn honking at ya!!

Might be an interesting mix between both extremes?

I for one, have three LaScalas and might do just that for my front HT end (3 LaScalas and 3 K402 horns on each one) That will keep things better matched with my cheesy rear speakers (which the Jubilees are destined to become)

You dont do any damage to your LaScalas by doing that, need an external xover, but Roy said he could run the numbers for it.

Cost, roughly $2,000 (HF horns/drivers shipped) before crossover issues/expense.

Perhaps that beats under $7,000 for Jubs??

ok, enough cheap posts for me, I've got someone due in here shortly.

[tidmack]

We're in the middle of a heatwave here in Milwaukee (65!!), so I'll try turning the speaker tonight. My guess too is that it will sound significantly different at 30' or so. I didn't realize that a two way comes together more quickly. . .gosh, I even read the other Jubilee threads and I STILL didn't get it. I tend to tune out when some threads get really techie.

On another note, I have had the system along the other long wall and had some major bass issues. . .this was before the subs though. Along the other wall, the bass from the 'Scalas was completely lost. Might be worth another switch though since the subs were added. . .

Jeff

[Coytee]

I don't have, have never had and proabably never properly HEARD subs.

So, with that blasphemous comment out, lemme say this.

If you WERE to "throw" some Jubilees in there (is it really possible to "throw" klipsch speakers ANYWHERE?)

Anyway, if you put some Jubilees in there, I'd bet a straight up dinner that you'd love them enough to remove the subs.

I'm not saying that would gain you any space, as the Jubilees are certainly ahem... spacious? Be it as it may, I know that "I" have absolutely zero interest in a sub now and I'm one that LOVES to pound oneself silly with STRONG ( quality) bass.

The Jubilees are just soooooooooo authoritative in their bass, I gotta tell ya. The graphs say they go as low (give/take a hair) as the khorns, but in MY room, they really toasted my Khorns. Maybe it's me & buyers remorse... if it IS, then I'd LOVE to be even MORE remorseful.

[bodcaw boy]

Here's an easy one: does the Jubilee require corner placement to complete the bass horn?

Jeff

actually to be correct, both the khorn (with a false corner or better yet like the 60th khorn) and jubilee do not technically use the room to complete the horn.....but what a corner offers both is 1/8 space loading that makes the air that it has to couple to much easier to move than say out in the middle of field somewhere.

so if you move it out of a corner there will be less coupling but it doesn't become significant until you get about one foot and just so you know, what i mean by significant, i'm talking about 1 db loss from about the cutoff of the horn 40 hz to about 100 hz. the further out the more loss. we have listened to it up against a wall and it sounded good and will a little eq, the bass became impactful again. you can eq because the horn is still a 40 hz horn no matter where it sits; but where it sits determines how hard it is to move the air. that is the reason why if you have a 60 hz horn and you listen to it against a wall and then move it to a corner it doesn't really go deeper but just sound louder because the horn will not do deeper than 60 hz; remember a horn is a high pass filter device.

sorry so long.....

boy!!

[DrWho]

Anyway, if you put some Jubilees in there, I'd bet a straight up dinner that you'd love them enough to remove the subs.

Is that strictly from a sonic standpoint? Or you gonna throw in aesthetics and costs into the mix as well? I'd kinda like to take you up on the challenge...but then again I listen to wierd music [H] Speaking of which, I still owe you that demo CD...

[Coytee]

Is that strictly from a sonic standpoint? Or you gonna throw in aesthetics and costs into the mix as well? I'd kinda like to take you up on the challenge...but then again I listen to wierd music [H] Speaking of which, I still owe you that demo CD...

I was going to harass you about the cd, but figured you're busy studying...

As for the challange, my personal viewpoint is (again, flavored with having NEVER owned a sub)

Anyway, my viewpoint is, LaScalas & Sub in, swap for the Jubilees and (in my room) the Jubilees will give you 85% of what the other pair will (just using 85 to make a point)

So, at that point, one has to weigh for themselves, the cost, space savings, dollar savings (amps, wiring, xover, subs) of having that extra stuff in there.

It goes back to a question I once asked, evidently poorly...

If someone has a pair of Jubilees and wanted to add a sub to go with them...(that would "keep up" with them) would the incremental gain in sonics be worth the incremental cost/space/complexity issues?

In MY opinion (my room, my electronics, MY cash [6] ) the answer is no. I have gone from TOTALLY wanting to get a sub to go with my Khorns, to having literally ZERO desire for a sub.

ya... they're that good. You know...you CAN get a direct flight from Chicago to Knoxville....I'm but an hour away.

[]

[DrWho]

more like 21 hours away....(gotta pay the plane ticket)

What we need is someone near Chicago to purchase a pair of Jubilees...[]

...OR, Roy could donate a pair to the Audio Engineering Society here on campus that way we can brag about the Klipsch name to all sorts of college kids who will one day be able to afford them in their own home [] All these guys think I'm crazy when I show them a tweeter bigger than the fridge in their bedroom []