Head to Head RT-12D v. 2-(KW-120-THX & KA1000-THX)

[theplummer]

Has anyone put these two subs up against each other in an AB comparison?

I haven't heard either yet, but comparing advertised specs, I hypothesize that the RT-12D is not quite as good performer, but is almost 1/2 the price of the dual KW120 KA 1000 recomended setup. Also, I'm looking for opinions or comparisons to how either sub would timbre match with a all Heritage HT. I realize both of these setups come from completly different lines.

(KW120-THX)

frequency response 20-200Hz ±3dB

power handling See KA-1000-THX specifications

sensitivity 130dB @ 30Hz, 122dB @ 20Hz, 112dB @ 15Hz 1/8 space, 1m (2 enclosures side-by-side per THX Ultra2)

(RT-12D)

frequency response 19-120Hz +/-3dB

maximum acoustic output 120dB @ 30Hz 1/8 space, 1m

amplifier power FTC Rated Power: 800 watts continuous @ <2% THD / Dynamic Power*: 2000 watts

Please chime in Who. (I'm not thinking of changing from our planned IB sub, just looking for options in other HT's. I know you like the KW-120 with Lascalla's, I'm wondering if the RT-12D may be a cheaper, smaller, less obtrusive option in a family room situation.)

[J.4knee]

Well youre not quite comparing apples to apples in your write up. You are comparing a single R12D to the entire THX Ultra II sub set up IE two subs vs. one. A better comparison would be to set up two RT12D against the THX Ultra II rig. I have heard the THX Ultra II rig with a Heritage HT and it is a match made in heaven. I have no reason to suspect the RT12D would be otherwise plus you get the room correction software feature to help you out in the set up. IMO either way you go you would be a happy camper. I too would like to hear the RT12D as it is really the optimal solution form me on paper.

[theplummer]

J.4knee, I realize that you are correct. I was just taking Klipsch's own data and comparing the two.

I realize that two drivers in the THX system is much more than the RT12d, but Klipsch recommends using two of the THX subs with the K1000amp.

To back up just a bid, I have finally figured out why I can't make separate paragraphs on my posts, also the original thread starter did not transfer the last paragraph and a half that I wanted to relate.

If you look at the data on the RT12D, it's down about 10DB at 20HZ from the THX system. I think that's quite a feat since there's one less driver (I also realize that the passive radiators on the RT12D act as slave drivers adding mass to the equation), and the fact that the room correction software has to be reducing the efficincy of the output, in order to compensate for one shortcoming. All others must suffer to be equal, therefore creating inefficiency.

due to the fact that the RT12D requires corner placementthis will creat inherent rises in the 60 to 80 HZ range, that must be dealt with.

I also do not understand why the THX subs go all the way up to 200HZ, this should creat a dramatic rise in SPL in the 100 to 200HZ range with the combination of a good floorstanding speaker. I realize that the sub can be turned down to compensate, but I must ask "WHY" is it capable of creating sount in the 200hz range if in most cases its not necessary. Most subs only measure to 120Hz.

All in all, I feel that the RT12D is probably a better bargain as it can usually be hidden in a corner, which is where most subs wind up anyway, it has the room correction software, and it's about $1500 cheaper than the THX system.

Unless there is something obvious that I'm missing

[DrWho]

The drivers in the KW-120's are actually good to about 2kHz. I would
imagine similar numbers for the driver in the RT-12d. Basically, the
higher up in frequency a driver can play, the better its transient
response (it's a direct result of Fourier Transforms).

The RT-12d
does not need to be positioned in a corner to operate correctly - it
just happens to be that it fits really well in a corner. All of the
corner loading gains associated with the RT-12d and the KW-120's are
going to be the same. In fact, the measurements by Klipsch put both
systems in the corner.

The Ultra2 subwoofer system was measured
with two KW-120's stacked on top of each other in the corner. This
realizes the full potential of corner gain, while yielding a 6dB
increase in output relative to just a single KW-120. In other words, if
you wanted to do apples to apples between the KW-120 and the RT-12d,
then you should subtract 6dB from the Ultra2 specs. So basically you're
looking at 124dB versus 120dB at 30Hz in a more apples to apples
comparison. Or another way to look at it is the Ultra2 subwoofer
package yields 130dB where two RT-12d's will yield 126dB.

4dB is quite a bit of difference in terms of excursion
capabilities of the drivers in question, but it's not a huge deal in
terms of audibility. The RT-12d is using a pair of passive radiators,
which means the output is going to be more linear as SPL increases and
you're not going to have any port noise (which is pretty loud on the
KW-120s). In fact, the air velocity inside the port of the KW-120 is so
great that it will blow your hair from 10 feet back [] Yes, that's
very cool from a wow-factor standpoint, but every bit of air movement
in the port is just adding to the distortion. I would expect the RT-12d
subs to sound a lot cleaner than the KW-120's.

The RT-12ds also
have that Adaptive Room Correction (ARC) thing. I haven't had the
chance to hear the RT-12d's or play with their ARC, but everyone seems
to claim that it really improves the integration with their mains. I
can't imagine it being a bad thing.

The only other comment I
wanted to make is I have a feeling that the KW-120's are going to dig
deeper...and I have a feeling they're going to sound more ballsy due to
the extra max SPL capabilities. If nothing else, I would expect the
amplifier for the KW-120's to be far superior to that in the RT-12d.

So
all that to say, I think it would be a close match to have a pair of
RT-12d versus the Ultra2 subwoofer system. Maybe we'll get to hear a
comparison at the pilgrimage this year?

[TheEAR]

In actual use the Klipsch THX sub(one THX sub/amp compared with one RT-12d)bests thye RT-12d on HT and music,the only point where the RT-12d will clearly the better sub is lack of compression at all levels of operation,no port noise.

But,before you start getting port noise your ears may very well give up,dual THX subs have massive output. The room acoustics corretion built in the RT subs is also a bonus,it is however not a must and you can always add a better system like the stand alone Velodyne SMS.

Going with subs that have room correction I would at least give a listen to the JL Audio f113,it beats the RT-12d in any departament you care to look.And deep bass extension,not even close,the RT-12d as tested by Ed Mullen drops SHARPLY from 22Hz down.The f113 has BIG output to below 16Hz! And its output from 25-80Hz is mighty.Also sub bass quality matches and bests the Velodyne DD18(a $5000sub)!

Just giving you options []

[Jay481985]

and how much does the jl retail for? the rt-12d I can get for 1400 or probably half the jl

[TheEAR]

and how much does the jl retail for? the rt-12d I can get for 1400 or probably half the jl

This is irrelevant at this point,I simply pointed towards an audition of this sub to showcase what is possible in terms of QUALITY. As neither the RT-12d or the THX subs match the f113's sound quality. Why not experience the best sub under 5K that sells for under 3K? No obligations here.

With so many people pointing HSU and SVS,the JL can give lessons to even Velodyne's best in sound quality! This says alot.

[DrWho]

At those price points I think one is better off considering IB or at least DIY. You giving up on the 16 driver IB Greg? []

[TheEAR]

DIY does not guarantee equal sound quality and much less a better one.Even with proven designs,plus unless you are skilled in cabinetry the product will look like an amateurish one.Giving the job of building the cabinet to others is no longer DO IT YOURSELF. []

IB fine and dandy when you are ready to have the whole house shaking when the "sub" is hard at work. You energise two spaces and no longer one!

One f113,top quality(sound and built),compact and will dig deep with authority.

[Jay481985]

and how much does the jl retail for? the rt-12d I can get for 1400 or probably half the jl

This is irrelevant at this point,I simply pointed towards an audition of this sub to showcase what is possible in terms of QUALITY. As neither the RT-12d or the THX subs match the f113's sound quality. Why not experience the best sub under 5K that sells for under 3K? No obligations here.

With so many people pointing HSU and SVS,the JL can give lessons to even Velodyne's best in sound quality! This says alot.

irrelevant!!!???? yes and everyone who can afford a 30000 dollar car can just as easily afford a 60000 dollar car is what you are trying to reason with?

Yes the 60000 dollar car is probably better in many ways then the 30000 dollar car but again not everyone can justify doubling the amount of money for a subwoofer or car.

[Trooper]

Back to the original question:

I have heard the THX subs and the RT-12d in the same room, same day, same equipment. I would take the single RT-12d over a single or even dual THX system. The primary reason is port noise from the THX subs. While many people might initially mistake it as additional output from the sub it is not (well, not in a good way). Listening to the 2 systems side-by-side it is obvious. I listened with a co-worker who is a HUGE fan of the THX subs and didn't want anything to beat them but he had to admit the RT-12d is a better sub.

While the Velodyne DD subs are fine subs they have managed to skate by the critics with a not very good room correction system (the same one is offered in the stand-alone SMS). If anyone would compare the measurement Velodyne takes (and displays on the TV) with a real in-room measurment taken with LMS, Audio Precision, or similar they would see that measurement is wrong thus ensuring that the correction will be wrong as well. I think the RT subs get it right.

[TheEAR]

Sorry double,down below...

[TheEAR]

Jay,

And again you argue over thin air!!! I said to give the JL Audio f113 a LISTEN,to hear what is possible in subwoofers in terms of quality,what are you afraid of ? That the person really likes the JL and may buy it ! I will not allow fanboys of any given company to HIDE the facts if better sounding options are on the market,pointing to audition them.There is NO(NONE,ZERO...NADA) OBLIGATION of any kind.

The ignorance is bliss badge does apply to all you know.

I am a fan of many Klipsch products but not a die hard blind fanboy,the JL line of subs bests anything Klipsch ever made (subwoofer wise).I have way too many products(subs)from too many brands to be a one or two brand trupet blower. The JL is the current benchmark,why not hear it? FEAR? LOL

[theplummer]

J.4KNEE

I do feel that i'm comparing apples to apples. Klipsch recommends two THX subs in their stats. for a given price of $3900.00. There is $2000.00 difference between the two systems. I expect the THX system to be double the RT-12d, but from what I glean from this data is that the RT-12d is a better (Bang for the Buck).

[theplummer]

Dr Who,

No, I'm not giving up on the 16 driver IB, but rather I'm disgusted with the Academy. I've tried and like hooking up the SW10II as a second center channel to help the Academy, but that means that I need another sub, Mama won't let me put the homade one back in the house. My thoughts here is to see about another sub that could be almost hidden in the house now, due do room constraints, and could also be used later in our new home in the family room, where I must surely use in wall speakers as this is Mamma's domain.

The RT-12d seems very appealing to me for that reason alone, and after reviewing the basic stats, seems very impressive to me, the only other option (or so I thought), was a Sunfire sub Jr. to do this job. I just can't wrap my mind around that tiny sub really being able to do the job like they claim.

It's very interesting about how several responses all seem to identify Chuffing from the THX system, not desirable IMHO. Shame on Klipsch, with there previous porting technology it seems to me that fixing that problem would be a no-brainer. Although I was looking for opinions on the corner loading of the RT-12d, as I'm familiar with the old Forte's and how they load up a corner.

Trooper,

Thank you, I was hoping that someone had heard the two in the same situation you have, I'm not suprised by your findings, even though it's half the price of the THX setup.

I was able to see a RT12D the other day, but it wasn't turned on and getting help at the store I was at was a Joke. Also, they did not sell the THX line, or have Heritage line in stock, so no comparison's there.

[DrWho]

The port chuffing in the KW-120 is the result of extreme SPL in a very small cabinet, further complicated by making it flushmountable for in-wall installations. I can't imagine what the KW-120 drivers would do in a PR system [Y]

Btw, I think it's wise to avoid the Sunfire Subs. They start making mechanical noise very similar to the sound of port chuffing, just more annoying - at least all the ones I've heard. They certainly pack a lot of punch - it's just not clean.

[DrWho]

DIY does not guarantee equal sound quality and much less a better one.Even with proven designs,plus unless you are skilled in cabinetry the product will look like an amateurish one.Giving the job of building the cabinet to others is no longer DO IT YOURSELF. []

Does that mean you gotta build the drivers by hand too? How bout the amplifiers [^o)][]

[brennyE]

lol now that could be something you would be seriously proud of!

[TheEAR]

DIY does not guarantee equal sound quality and much less a better one.Even with proven designs,plus unless you are skilled in cabinetry the product will look like an amateurish one.Giving the job of building the cabinet to others is no longer DO IT YOURSELF. []

Does that mean you gotta build the drivers by hand too? How bout the amplifiers [^o)][]

Do It Yourself as it says...you buy parts and make the sub yourself. As many people use made plans or WinISD to help them,remove WinISD ...I will from this day forth call them ASSEMBLE IT YOURSELFers! Or for short A I Y

Those who do not even build their own cabinets will be called Peeps Who Cannot Even Assemble PWCEA's And down the barrel you have the sonotube users who proudly display construction cement pouring tubes closed at both ends.

These peeps will be known as LAZY Assemble It Yourselfers or for the common folk... LAIY's

[]

[theplummer]

DIY does not guarantee equal sound quality and much less a better one.Even with proven designs,plus unless you are skilled in cabinetry the product will look like an amateurish one.Giving the job of building the cabinet to others is no longer DO IT YOURSELF. []

Does that mean you gotta build the drivers by hand too? How bout the amplifiers [^o)][]

Do It Yourself as it says...you buy parts and make the sub yourself. As many people use made plans or WinISD to help them,remove WinISD ...I will from this day forth call them ASSEMBLE IT YOURSELFers! Or for short A I Y

Those who do not even build their own cabinets will be called Peeps Who Cannot Even Assemble PWCEA's And down the barrel you have the sonotube users who proudly display construction cement pouring tubes closed at both ends.

These peeps will be known as LAZY Assemble It Yourselfers or for the common folk... LAIY's

[]

Soooo, I guess the guy that buys one, "off the shelf" is even lazier than LAIY's. Therefore your earlier rant about the JL sub puts you in "what catagory".