Technics 1200 mk II or Rega P3

[maxg]

I have been watching this thread develop but have not as yet, commented. I do not think it is that easy a decision. From the little I know on the subject I think the main issue with the Technics is that standard arm - which is designed more for robustness than sonic integrity. The arm on the Rega is the better IMHO.

The Rega does not suffer unduly from speed stability and in the majority of cases you would probably find VTA adjustment to be more of a pain than it is worth. I do have VTA on the fly adjustment but almost never used it. About 2 years ago I set it to spot on for a 160 gram record and left it there - so it is only slightly out for 120 and only slightly out for 200 grams - not enough to make a sonic difference with my cartridge.

Any micro-variations you might get in a belt drive table can be offset against motor rumble from a direct driver unit. On either of these units you can rest easy - neither are a particular issue.

On the one hand - the Rega is the budget audiophile's choice - the accepted pathway to enlightenment and all that. On the other hand - replace the arm on the technics and prepare to be amazed - if a little off the beaten path.

Looking at the 2 units as a value for money proposition is even more confusing - there is a hell of a lot of very clever technology that went into the Technics to solve the direct drive problems. All of this R&D has long since been reclaimed - were this a new design I would expect a price tag 4 times its current sticker.

The Technics also wins the lbs for $ ratio - hands down.

Against that - it is hard to get much better sound for your $ than you can with a Rega.

Tough choice.....

[jt1stcav]

Max is right, tough choice, indeed. Either 'table is worthy IMO.

For cryin' out loud, just pick one! Eene-meene-minie-moe...[]

[Audio Flynn]

Max is right, tough choice, indeed. Either 'table is worthy IMO.

For cryin' out loud, just pick one! Eene-meene-minie-moe...[]

I have used this decision making method with some success.[]

If the Thorens is really nice cosmetically it may be worth a new arm.

[dhtman]

Dhtman,

You mentioned that we are being fed a bunch of half truths about audio etc. But when you say something like "When the stylus tracks a heavily modulated loud transient, the increased stylus drag momentarily slows the platter, increasing the tension on the belt, then releasing it again as the speed returns to the nominal." I have to wonder if that isn't a zero truth?

This sounds to me like a made up argument direct drive manufactures and afficainados conjured up to promote their own particular drive choice. I might be all wrong, I'd like to learn more about it though. A .5mm hard stylus setting in a tiny record groove with maybe a couple of grams of down force doesn't seem to me to be able to exert enough of a drag on a 5 pound spinning platter to alter it's speed based on how complex the groove is that it is tracking? Maybe it does, I dont want to argue, I'd just like to figure this out. From where are you getting this information?

I can't remember the definitive source, however it's in the FAQ at www.galibierdesign.com and it was discussed at great length in the original "High end tables from Home Despot" thread in Audiogon's analog forum, in the context of idler drive tables having better bass and transients due to higher torque motors specified in the days of 78s when tracking force was much higher.

My hunch is that there are so many forces acting on a belt drive turntable (belt to pulley and platter interface; bearing friction, AC motor cogging, belt tension, etc.) that it would be tough to get some meaningful numbers. As an alternative, I would suggest an experiment - just for fun, try making a belt made from unwaxed dental floss and check out how it sounds (dental floss is designed not to stretch) or make up a belt from a length of magnetic tape and try that (if you can get the length/tension spot on).

It's not my intention to hijack the OP's thread by evangelizing for suspensionless turntables (I don't believe the topology is superior per se, it's just at the pricepoint the OP is considering the Technics is a better implementation than a Rega P2, IMO. The reasons have already been discussed - complex design, amortized capital costs, etc).

I would say though that for anyone who is into vinyl and has never auditioned a solid table should do so at some point, and ideally a design that doesn't have a rubber belt - mylar is best IMO.

[dhtman]

Forgive my breach of etiquette in replying to my own post, however I was leafing through the current magazine and saw an interesting reply to a reader's letter which I thought would be of interest.

The question related to a mention last year of a new direct drive turntable appearing soon - the reader wanted to upgrade his Technics SP10 MkII.

In response the mag's editor, David Price, names the developer (owner of a vinyl specialist shop in London), goes on to mention that he suggested to Pro - ject's top guy that they should have a direct drive model, and received a reaction that indicated there might be something happening along those lines. Then he went on to the interesting and relevant paragraph that I quote verbatim from page 101:

"Back to the present, and yours truly has now shelled out on a Technics SL1200 of his very own. You might remember that Hi-Fi World's own Stewart Wennen produced a design for a Rega armboard mod for the Technics, some three years ago. This is now on sale through Origin Live for £39, and I have ordered one of these. Next, I am going to pull the deck apart, upgrade the mains cable, isolate all the electronics using Dynamat Sorbothane sheets, change the bearing oil to VDH TLF, rebuild it, with an Origin Live Silver tonearm and - cue fanfare - design an outer plinth for it, introducing an extra layer of isolation, which I am having fabricated in black acrylic. This project, I hope, will appear in the next vinyl special issue in April 2007, and then we will put it against some of our favourites, suc as Noel's 401 (if he'll let me)!"

I'm not suggesting that it's necessary to do all these mods (there are plenty of reviews on the www that suggest the stock Technics arm is pretty good) - my intention is to point out that the guy who is Britiain's equivalent of Michael Fremer sees some virtue in the Technics table and is not ashamed to say so or put his money where his mouth is. Also his mods are aimed at improving isolation and he's fitting an audiophile arm whilst leaving the drive and speed control stock.

[whell]

Well, I'm sure that all of you were just dying to to know what decision I, the absolute king of indecision and procrastination, came up with for the new turntable of choice. Between the Rega and the Technics, I choose...

....wait for it.....

...its coming....

...here it is.......

...NEITHER!

That's right. My decision is to hold on to the Thorens TD 145 that I have owned for a while.

It does have a faint 60 hz hum, louder when the motor isn't running, very faint when the platter is spinning. I'm going to try to sort this out over time. My suspicion is that it will need to be rewired (which looks darn near impossible to do on the TP-16 arm), from the tonearm leads out to the interconnects, as I've checked all the contact points and they look OK. The other issue is that the anti skating is shot. However, the old tried and true method of "manual anti -skating", tipping very slightly the side of the turntable opposite the tonearm, does help a bit.

Allan and Rick suggested replacing the tonearm on it, and I suspect this would cure both the hum and the anti skate issue in one fell swoop. However, I think I'm going to ride it out a bit with the table as is, and maybe upgrade the cartridge for now.

To cement the decision, I stopped by Home Depot and picked up a piece of half inch thick MDF, and had them cut it to size to replace the flimsy pressboard bottom plate. The Analog Dept suggests using plywood, but this stuff seems pretty dense, heavy and inert to me.

Finally, for the cartridge upgrade, since I have the OM10 Super mounted on it now (I've actually got a couple of spare headshells so I can mess with different cartridges), I'll save my pennies and upgrade to the OM 30 or 40 Super. I've got an older Grado cartridge too, and according to Grado's site the replacement stylus is the Silver. I might try that at some point too.

Thanks for all your suggesions. I did learn a thing or two on this thread!

[lwhaples]

Smart move! Changing to a heavy base is a good first step.I liked the sound of my first TD 160 Thorens,that I went and bought a secound from a Forum member.A TD 160 MKII,with the Rega RB250 arm and the Orfton Super OM30 cart.Becuse it was shipped from far away,I had to learn to play with it to get it right again.Once I got used to the way it sounded,I decided to dampen the inside and add a VTA on the fly.Sweet!

My third Thorens is yet another TD160 MKII,that I bought with no arm.Installed a SME arm and am using a Denon 103 cart.Again,Sweet! I think if you stay with your TD 145 and are willing to play with it,you will enjoy the time spent.With all the info out there on the Thorens,you can't go wrong.

Larry