Does Sizes Really Matter?

[TheEAR]

Jeff,

Sure I will be less harsh towards Mr Dump.

Now TheEAR knows this...

SPL series is all about the max SPL out of a tiny box(from 8" to 12" woofer)driven by a 750W RMS amp.

The HGS is a servo contolled dual voice coil tandem design.Driven by a 1250W RMS power amps,less output and more control,more detail if you will.I know I will not change my HGS18 against any SPL. I like the super heavy duty drivers on the HGS.

HGS is more about quality,the SPL while still good quality(sub bass)is more about output(more then HGS size to size...the SPL1200 will output more then the HGS12).

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Klipschguy]

I usually get irritated when people "rag on each other" here in this forum. But the Forest/Ear thing, for some reason, makes me laugh my head off. It's kind of like an augmented Abbott and Costello routine. Hat's off to you guys.

Andy

P.S. M&K is a workhorse with solid performance - especially with music.

[TheEAR]

Klipschguy err Andy,

Thank you,ForrestBump will be proud of his ranting and raving.I heard he completed his statute of TN and it looks like a huge oil barrel sub. LOL What is next a TV staue? Who knows what ForrestGump is up to.

I will try to keep this boeard alive

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TheEAR]

Err board...sorry

My ANGLAIS est pathetique

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Mikekid]

Please... continue

You two are killing me!!!

HHAAAA!!!!!!!

Mike

[TheEAR]

Mikekid,

Do not worry,Forrest did not say the last word here. I am sure he will explode with another obscene profanity.

ForrestDump,

Did you finish the TN statue yet?You know the oil barrel thing looks like a copy of TV's work,he may sue you over this!

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[bacevedo]

I always wondered what the main difference was between the SPL and HGS as well. I have the SPL1200, and I can tell you, this thing can crank out the bass. The HGS may be cleaner, but this SPL is already very clean, so I don't know if you could tell the difference.

The SPL series are less than 5% THD, and the HGS are less than 1%. I have read that less than 10% is good, so who knows.

Bryan

And yes, I too get a kick out of TheEar(s) and forresthump. I have never heard anyone say that "an elephant farts louder than you". That gave me quite a good chuckle.

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"... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater"

Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV

Denon AVR 3802 Receiver

Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer

JVC 3600U SVHS VCR

RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner

Klipsch RB5 - Mains

Klipsch RC3 - Center

Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds

Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer

Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner

Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

[forresthump]

If an elephant farts in the forest and nobody's there to hear it, I would bet it still sounds like earwax speaking. a lot of smelly hot air. i bet if ear(s) flapped his ears he would fly away

does anybody really believe anything a Marxist french canadean has to say?

like i said he so sensative and territorial about his Sunflower subs he probably pees on them every morning to mark his turf LOL

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go forth & hump the world

[TheEAR]

ForrestGump,

First what is a " Marxist french canadean " ? Did you say canadean...ITS CANADIAN YOU lightbulb.

Like I said I better be a hard core Marxist(please do note I am not )then a Taliban supporter who wears a I love Osama's mama T-shirt.

Well you will hear the elephant since you are ForrestGump.So you still did not answer WHAT GEAR DO YOU OWN? Sesame Street or GIJoe ?

Are the statues ready yet,all Klipsch BB members including TV want to see them.TN will be here to check them out,too!

As I predicted you did release another SBD(silent but deadly)brain fart.Thank you for proving me right!

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

English is obviously a second language to Earmite LOL

It looks like you learned English only from the plates and manuals of your Equipment LOL

If you listen more than you speak I told you what I have on that other thread. A GE stereo clock radio and

dual SVS 16-46CS LOL No really I have amps and components far superior to yours. The SVS Subs I do have, dual 16-46 are far superior to all of yours combined. I could buy more but why have your hodge-podge mess of subs. I make more$ in 1 shoot than you make in a whole year. MUHAHAHA

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go forth & hump the world

[TheEAR]

I pit my Velodyne HGS18 against your dual barrels any day on true sub bass(below 20Hz).And dont forget ForrestDump,I have a Aerial and a Revel worki g in that system. You have no chance in Hell.

My Dynaudio Contour speakers make your primitive boom boxes you call speakers sound as colored as a rainbow and your dollar store amplification is no match for my Celeste,ATI and Krell power amps. LOL

Bring your dumpster gear on

Have a nice day

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Colin]

U guys sound like an old married couple!

the remaining taliban certainly have tunnel vision now -

I love Tom Nousine for his publications of specs and the 4 18" woofers he built int a slot that descends into his basement -

ear, what is the combined output, power and frequency range of your most powerful subs on one system?

forrest, we may not live in Habermas's rational-critical society, but we all live in Marx's class economy, every capitalist should study Marx, as every facist should read about democracy, -

ergo, every person who thinks that a certain set of speakers, music or movie does not need a sub-woofer should listen to one on their own system ...

This message has been edited by Colin on 12-10-2001 at 03:16 PM

[boa12]

politics & personal spats aside (where they should be ) i'm curious about this slow sub thing. especially since i keep hearing how slow my vel hgs-18 is supposed

to be on music. seems fine to me especially since it's

flat to 12.5hz & packs a big clean whallop. but maybe i just haven't heard a "fast" 18" sub.

is this slowness or fastness, i assume aka transient response, the same as "pitch definition" many reviewers

talk about but don't actually scientifically measure? have there been any actual electronic measurements done

on speakers &/or subs in any reviews? or is it strictly left up to the reviewers' judgements?

i wonder too if the speed of my hgs-18 were isolated to

the 30-60hz range, would it be generally the same speed

as a smaller sub that's suppose to be faster? iow, is it just the super lows below 30 or even 20hz produced at high spl that give the appearance that it's not as fast as a 10" or does the larger driver or something else actually slow down the higher lows?

i know ears has mentioned the sub factors like the voice coil or excursion, but what about the output measurements. is the only way to judge by actually listening? then i would think the settings, room, placement, other equipment, etc. would be a big factor in that judgement.

maybe tv or other sub experts know (?)

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My Home Systems Page

[TheEAR]

Colin,

Good idea,the hostilities should end.Its deal done,the French Canadian ...Marxist says "Vive le...Libre" LOL

Yeah the taliban sure have tunnel vision now,if you would stay in a cave and B-52 kites would drop 5000lbs cave busting cany you would know tunnel vision.

To answer your question the VeloHGS18 + AerialSW12 + Revel B15 are the most powerful around 30Hz(as most subs are)in my larger room.The output nears(I never pushed the subs to the very limit)122dB(using my old RatShack SPL meter,may not be too accurate)at listening position.All subs are along the right(from my perspective)side wall.At 25Hz I manage a respectable 118dB.And at 20Hz its drops to 113dB(still great).Think about it 113dB at 20Hz in a 16*20(ah 22 if cheated a bit)room,12 foot high too.My small HT room is only 10*14!In the small room I obtain(from the 4 Sunflowers )Very close numbers at 25 and 30Hz,note the room is only 7.5' high.

All in all the Sunflowers and the BRUTAL THREE do their job damn well.All fill where the mains leave off,no boomy,bloated sub bass in my systems.

Boa,

The HGS18 is a very fast 18" sub,the dual tandem push pull helps alot.And the huge concentrated magnetic field helps the twin VC work in this strong magnetic field.

The HGS18 is not slow,it just does not have the upper bass slam.Most small drivers(err subs)have it and the reviewers often will call this speed.Its not

Yes the HGS10 reacts a tiny bit faster then the HGS18,both have the same VC and very similar magnetic structures.The HGS18 drive system pushes a larger cone and much more air.So yes the HGS 10 and 12 should be faster on paper,will you hear this.maybe and maybe NOT.

My two cents

TV's SVS use very high quality drivers with powerful motor structures and light cones.His designs(comercial)are around 12" drivers.SO his subs will be very "fast".The more air the drivers move the more powerful the motor structure and suspension should be to recall the cone to the center.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boa12]

thanks ears that's helpful. maybe I need to relisten and dial down the crossover on the B&K pre/pro to more like 40hz like u said before. & let those B-52 klf-30s handle more of that upper lower bass. makes sense on paper-will do some more tweaking & listening.

only trouble is the pre/pro crossover is universal so it also applies to my C7 centers & those should probably be cut at 80hz, though i've measured pretty good output on them to 50hz.

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My Home Systems Page

[TBrennan]

Small drivers don't make "faster" bass than large ones, certainly not in a bandwidth limited setting, in other words a fast woofer is a tweeter. Remember that for a given level a small driver has to move farther than a large one and that many large drivers such as 15" and 18" JBLs have VERY powerful motors with high "power to weight" ratios. So saying a small woofer is faster is like saying a Yugo is quicker in a 1/4 drag than a Street-Hemi is in a 1/8 mile drag. But in any case I think that the perception of speed in a woofer has a great deal to do with distortion and the damping characteristics of the driver-box and little to do with driver size. At a given f3 an optimally damped 18 will sound fast and an underdamped 10 will sound slow. And at any given output the 18 will make less distortion. However the bandwidth limiting of subwoofers make IM, the worst type of distortion, less of a problem. This means long-stroking small cone subs like the Sunfire, which would be an absolutely horrid IM producer if called on to be a regular woofer and respond into the lower midrange, seem to be acceptable to many who favor low distortion (horn) main speakers.

See guys, I'm rethinking this. But I still favor the Contrabass. :-)

[Colin]

wow, thanks ears, do you have all those subs dialed for flat response (at least with music) or do you get a tremondous boost in the low end?

seems like most full-range speakers need help in the low end. below 40 Hz, especially if driven by tubes -

Tom, your explanations are great, too bad you live in the windy city, you make it sound as if many cabinets for 18" woofers are not dampened as well as they should be -

with all the subs that he has (which I can understand, after all Bill Gates has a 20 car, yes, 20, garage) way doesn't the ears have one of the Contrabass subs?

have you ever heard one? what do you think, ears?

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Lights out & tubes glowing! (See Acolin's AColin - tweaking audiophile's big old horns at inmate systems at audioasylum.com)

[TBrennan]

Colin--The damping I was talking about was driver damping not cabinet damping---the behavior of the driver at the driver-box resonance, basically how long the driver continues to vibrate after the signal is gone, how good the brakes are. :-) For a given driver this varies greatly with box size and (in vented systems) venting. The "boombox" sound of some speakers is an example of a system deliberately underdamped in order to gain a certain sound, underdamping can give a rise in response just before the system starts to rolloff giving a "bassy" sound, the famous Rogers LS-35a is an example of such an underdamped speaker. Horns sound so good not only because of their low excursions but because the air load in the horn damps the driver, horns have very good brakes.

[TheEAR]

Colin,

The Sunflowers(err Bob's cubed sub bass creations)are cut around 40Hz now.They add where the Klipsch R series can provide with power or have a roll off.At this setting(took me a good 4 hours to adjust the proper levels on all subs)the response is quite falt,you would not say "WOW the bass sure poverpowers the Klipsches"or "HUGE bass".Its there,the subs only work when called for from around 40Hz down.

Remember the RF-7's and RF-5's have plenty of bass power/slam.

As for my larger higher end system,the Velo,Revel and Aerial are cut around 30Hz now!The Contour 3.3's have generous bass down to a bit below 30Hz.This system is much more detailed and has a midrange purity many so called High-End speakers would like to have.AWESOME

TheEAR(s) Now theears