High Resolution Audio Format War (DVD-A and Blue Ray)

[enigzenig]

I have recently purchased a DVD-Audio player to play high resolution audio. Doing some research on the web, it appears people think that DVD-A is going to be short lived. Blue Ray has the capability of 24-bit 192Khz audio and is stated it will replace the DVD format all together.

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What do you think? I dont want to invest much money in DVD-A if it wont stick around. At the same time, I like the smoother sound.

[Mallette]

DVD-A can't die, since it has really had no life. Beauty of BluRay is that it holds the promise of any sample rate with no compression. That means little guys like me can make them and not have to pay 2500.00 for Meridian Lossless rights to make it fit. And I can do 4X24/192 if I want to. And I do.

Good thing.

Dave

[edwinr]

You missed the DVD-A funeral. Now they're holding the wake...

[enigzenig]

The FYE store use to have DVD-A and for some reason they pulled all of it. Is it really a dead format?

[boom3]

DVD-A is NOT dead, but is on life support. The Aix label has put out some very well-regarded DVD-As, and so has Warner. I am a DVD-A partisan, but here's why I think DVD-A never got off the ground:

1. It arrived as 5.1 HT did, and the public got confused.

2. Some of us remember the Quadraphonic debacle, and DVD-A seemed (to the not-so-technical) like a re-tread of Quad.

3. A few well-known pop/rock works were remixed and provided as DVD-As. Some of these, particularly the Doors LA Woman and Yes, Fragile, are atrocious for clumsy remixing. Some, like the Dead's American Beauty, are fantastic.

4. SACD competed but also tended to confuse the public. The HT In A Box customers didn't understand it and couldn't tell the difference with that level of equipment anyway.

5. The public was just installing the cadre of second-generation DVD players, which were not all DVD-A enabled. "You mean I gotta buy another DVD player?"

6. Music sharing, downloading, iPods...

[Mallette]

Some good points, boom3, and I cannot really dispute them, but let me add the points I really think did it:

>No. 1, and the music companies are completely clueless about this, is the number of us audiophiles buying up cheap vinyl instead of anything else, including CD's. REAL record buyers like myself and many others always accounted for a far greater share of record sales than the general public. I buy perhaps a 100 a year...if those were CD's or DVD's even a 100,000 like me would have a significant impact on the market.

>Roadblocks to self-publish. Until DiscWelder Bronze, there was no way guys like me could make a DVD-A. Even now, we can't do 5.1 as the Meridian Lossless software can't be had for less than 2500.00. Nahgaddodoit for a simple compressor that would be freeware if the industry had not chosen to monopolize it to keep mom and pop out of the game. Bronze came too late to make a difference. Self-published and small business CD makers account for a lot of sales these days.

>This is related to, but slightly different from my first point. Those satisfied with the limits of CD sound simply have no interest in or need for a higher resolution format. "Midnight Oil" sounds fine. However, if you want to really hear the difference between an Amati and a Stradivari, you need higher res. However, you can get that for 50 cents to 5 bucks at the used LP store and many of those with that preference remain dubious of digital. Ask maxg.

You are right about the AIX releases as they have some good sound and fine performances. However, I've purchased some of them and they do not really seem to have grasp of the technology or the audience for it. Lots of gimmicks like choosing your spot in the audience, etc. There is one perfect spot in every space for an audiophile, and that's where the mikes should be.

Higher density storage, such as BluRay, holds the promise of doing away with "formats" as such given that their storage capacity is functionally unlimited for audio purposes. Even 5.1 X 24/192 would not seriously challenge a dual density BluRay. Once it reaches significant penetration and the price comes down audio speciality companies will almost certainly begin to offer players that can handle ANY file type. Finally, the consumer companies will follow as it won't really cost that much more. That is basically what I have in my music servers...an 8 channel soundcard that doesn't care what you throw at it. When that happens, the confusion will end as neither Bubba nor Joe Audiophile will need to know or care what kind of disc it is...just stick it in the drive and go.

Dave

May it come to pass SOON!

[coda]

Jan. 07, 2007

LG ELECTRONICS LAUNCHES INDUSTRYS FIRST DUAL-FORMAT HIGH-DEFINITION DISC PLAYER




Player with Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD Playback Capabilities
Introduced for First Quarter 2007 Availability

Blending the latest technologies and offering unprecedented flexibility
to consumers seeking the convenience of playing both Blu-ray Disc and
HD DVD high-definition content, LG Electronics (LG), a leader in
consumer electronics and mobile communications, today launched the
groundbreaking Super Multi Blue Player at the 2007 International CES®
(Booth #8214, Central Hall, Las Vegas Convention Center).

Launching
in the United States during the first quarter of 2007, this advanced
dual-format high-definition disc player, LG model BH100, will be the
first player on the market with the capability to play both
next-generation disc formats, addressing the challenge of the current
format war. The new player is ideally suited to LGs expanded lineup of
Full HD 1080p plasma and LCD HDTVs, delivering best video possible in
the highest display resolution format.

Weve developed the
Super Multi Blue Player to end the confusion caused by the current
competition between Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Customers are no longer
forced to choose between the two formats, said Dr. Hee **** Lee,
president and chief technology officer of LG Electronics. As Full HD
TV is already gaining ground, we are hoping that the Super Multi Blue
Player will play the trigger role in expanding and advancing both Full
HD TV and high-definition DVD market volume together.

LG
Electronics also offers flexibility to consumers in next generation
optical disc drives for personal computers. (See separate news release)
The GGW-H10N, also available in the first quarter of 2007, is
compatible with both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD formats. The Super Multi
Blue 50GB drive is compatible with Blu-ray Disc, DVD, CD read/write and
HD-DVD-ROM (read), offering the most universal unit available.

We
know our customers want high-definition content for their HDTVs. We
also know a format war keeps people on the sidelines, said Mike
Vitelli, senior vice president of merchandising at Best Buy. With this
new dual-format player, LG is offering a viable solution to this
dispute. This is the kind of customer-focused approach that Best Buy
looks to bring to our customers.

Warner Home Video President
Ron Sanders added, We enthusiastically welcome LGs introduction of
the Super Multi Blue high-definition disc player. This is a great first
step towards resolving consumer confusion and uncertainty due to the
two high-definition formats. The Super Multi Blue Player will allow
studios to better meet consumers growing demand for high-definition
content in both the Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD formats.

By
providing a high-definition player that supports both Blu-ray Disc and
HD DVD discs, LG is delivering a product that puts the customer first,
said Randy Wick, senior vice president and general merchandise manager
of consumer electronics at Circuit City Stores, Inc. We applaud the LG
customer-friendly approach, as it will serve to alleviate customers
confusion about the two formats.

Michael Ahn, president and
CEO of LG Electronics North American Headquarters, echoed comments from
Hollywood and leading retailers in support of LGs dual-format
approach. The American consumers love affair with HDTV is now even
stronger thanks to LGs marriage of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Whats
more, our player upconverts standard DVDs to 1080i resolution,
providing compatibility with consumers existing movie libraries while
improving the picture quality of those discs, too.

In
addition to offering Full HD 1080p picture quality from high-definition
discs, the player incorporates interactive functions based on BD-Java,
which allows advanced menus and functions to be displayed over the
video of Blu-ray discs. And, while the same level of advanced menu
interactivity is not available while playing HD DVD discs, the powerful
combination of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD audio-video playback
technologies is like no other on the market.

The unit supports
various A/V formats, including MPEG-2, VC-1, H.264 video, MPEG1/2
audio, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital+, DTS and DTS-HD audio, and
includes multiple inputs/outputs such as HDMI out, component/composite
video outputs, and optical/coaxial/discrete 5.1 channel audio outputs,
among others.

The strikingly designed unit incorporates
elegant and easy-to-use backlit touch sensor buttons along with an
ergonomic remote control that delivers an effortless command of the
next-generation home entertainment experience.

LGs Super
Multi Blue Player (BH100), available to U.S. consumers during the first
quarter of 2007, is expected to sell for about U.S. $1,199.

LG Press Release

...........................................................................................

HD-DVD goes beyond 50GB with new disc

CES 2007 Coverage

By Henning Molbaek

FIRST PUBLISHED Jan 9, 2007

Toshiba has announced a new 51GB HD-DVD Rom disc at this year's CES.



Beating Blu-ray by 1GB, Toshiba today said that they had successfully
created a triple layer HD-DVD disc that could contain 51GB worth of
data with 17GB on each layer.



"Continued improvement in disc mastering technology has achieved
further minimization in the recording pit, supporting a further boost
in capacity to 17GB in single layer and a full 51GB on a single-sided
triple-layer disc. Toshiba has confirmed the disc structure and its
successful operation." said the press release. "This time-tested
physical structure offers proven volume manufacturing at little cost
increment."



Toshiba has now closed the storage gab with Blu-ray, which can store
50GB on a dual-layered disc. It will be exciting to see if this has any
effect on the raging format war. Stay tuned.

Press release

...........................................................................................

Total copies in stock at Amazon: Blu Ray 9778 HD DVD 12867

Average Amazon.com price: Blu Ray $24.70 HD DVD $21.80

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

[enigzenig]

Just when a new format is available, it is only a matter of time for a new format to arise. The recording companies must be loving this right now with people replacing their audio collection with a new format, only for it to be replaced again soon.

Can the DVD-A disks be copied to a Blue Ray (or HD DVD) with a conversion program. I would be more inclined to buy DVD-A disks if I can convert them to a new format without having to purchase yet another version of the same album.

When will there be a decent blue ray player that has Burr Brown DACs with decent audio reproduction? Anybody on standby waiting for such a player?

[kev313]

GooooooooooooooooooooooOOOO SACD!!!!

Seriously, though, I am sure Sony will put out a nice blu-ray unit on par with their higher level SACD players. Well, I am hopeful anyway. I hear the average Sony unit quality has tumbled in recent years.

Not that they aren't capable. I've got an SACD-1 and that thing is amazing.

[thoppa]

Music they will play at the wake for DVD-A....while dual disc is trying to resurrect it.....

http://consumers.umusic.com/dvda/releases.html

Anybody know a software player for DVD-A ?

Cheers,

Tom

[maxg]

As most of us are fond of saying from time to time - it is all about the music. There was simply too little of it for too long on both SACD and DVDa to make any kind of inroad.

What needed to happen was that all music on Cd became by default music on one or other of the above 2 formats. In other words - all disks from, say, 2000 onwards was on a dual layer disk that would play in a normal CD player and a SACD/DVDa player. Didn't happen. Greedy manufacturers tried to charge a premium over the already over-inflated CD pricing and the thing died.

Now - several years on, the technology has moved on - the storage space that much greater, the access times that much less and new facilities abound.

There is no reason at all why Blue Ray or HDDVD cant outperform SACD and DVDa for music. For one of these 2 to take off we need them to make a step akin to the one above. There is plenty of room to have a Hi Def movie and a Hi Def sound-track. Price the software like a common or garden DVD of today and they could finally have a winner - otherwise it is an MP3 future with a sprinkling of vinyl loons.

As I think Gary said - make the recording software freeware and it can really take off - if I could rip my vinyl to a digital format that actually matched it sonically I would do it in a shot - why not?

[boom3]

My first Aix DVD-A is of harp music. Beautiful, but so closely miked that the heavy breathing of the harpist really intruded, on every mix on the disc. I contacted their CEO and he said all their mixes of that recording were like that and he graciously offered to refund my purchase. I did not ask for that and I'm willing to try another Aix disk.

My fave DVD-A classical is the Telarc 1812-but not for 1812 itself-it's the Cappricio Italian (sp?) Some of the classical DVD-A only use the back channels for ambience, which offers no more than what my HT receiver can synthesize from any 2 channel source. The Dead music that Micky Hart remixed is fantastic. Wish he'd do more!

I bought a DVD-A recently from Amazon that had some classical faves on it. When I opened the package (a regular CD case, BTW, not the nice DVD jewelcases we've come to expect) I noticed right off it was a "home made" DVD-A (purple back). Well, OK. Put it on, the music performance and recording was fine. EXCEPT-it had very loud pops between tracks, so high I feared for my tweeters. Shot it right back to Amazon for refund.

I know DRM is a sep issue from format, but in light of what Steve Jobs said recently about forgetting DRM altogether, I am hoping thqt the 50 gig disk may ease the end of DRM and we will have one open standard in a DRM-free format. Somehow I doubt the lawyers for the media biz will let that happen...

I am thinking of what Matt Groening (creator of the Simpsons) said back in the 80s about the then-new CDs:

"Why are they called Compact Disks? Becasue they're round and we've [the record companies] made a compact with the devil"

[coda]

Been listening to DAD and HDAD for years, plays in any DVD player but for some reason it never really took off. Nice to spin in the Toshiba 3950.

http://www.classicrecords.com

http://www.themusic.com/search.cfm?classic_cat=59&sidebar=classic

keeping an eye on the "new and improved" hi rez formats, TrueHD and DTS . .

[Mallette]

MaxG: You may recall a couple of years ago I did some LP to digital experiments. At 24/192 the audible difference was negligible and possibly only level related. Further, this digitizing allows the used of non-signal altering de-click software (advanced only, such as the Sound Forge NX Reduction module) to eliminate such noises except in really bad cases. This type of process is digital and has no effect whatsoever (as opposed to old units like the SAE which affected the whole signal) except on impulses noises. Very good thing. Downside was that the resulting file was in excess of 5gb. BluRay eliminates file size as an issue and leaves us a choice: Continue the inevitable destruction of our analog resources which occurs with even the best care and equipment, or digitize and preserve the originals for occasional pleasure (clicks, pops, and all).

It is now a very real choice. I am usually a bit ahead of the curve on these things (in this case, about 5 years), but I think it will not be too long before the most rabid LP addicts begin to feel guilty about how they are maintaining their precious heritage. In my case, I intend to preserve and hand them down to the next generation as intact and pristine as possible. They are no longer consumables.

Dave